More PBAoE aggro spells for Paladins

Daelius

Daelius

Dalayan Adventurer
Currently, paladins only have 3 pbaoe aggro spells. Words of the Crusader (64) and Wave of Light(62) are both buyable while Shout of Agony only drops from the spider keeper.

Now, paladin's main advantage over shadowknights in term of tanking are slightly higher dps and pbaoe aggro generation. However, with just those 3 spells, i feel that at least lower level paladins don't get that advantage. Would it be possible to add more lower level pbaoe paladin spells, maybe another stun and blind coming somewhere in the mid range of spells?
 
Shout of agony is 18Min recast or something also.
Mob who drop it is 1 group doable tho.
(semi Hijacking the post , sorry. ) :

About aggro spells.
could the dev team looks at it, since server has been ever & ever better AAed & Geared, people generate more & more aggro....
Spamming 7 or 8 Hate spell( AA hate + The both higher level terror spell ) to have aggro back is ridiculous.
Now when i have to break mezz , or having a non slacking bst. in group i always have ( and i do use ) Shroud of nightmare + Curse of years to Lock the aggro on eleonor...

The problem of those spells are :
they re very very often resisted.( on High end exp zone ). I sometime be able to land shroud of nightmare on raid mob ( like Ip trash ).
( and Sk gear seriously lack of CHA :p )
they cost a lot of mana to use it on every mob. When you have a good FT / JB & mana pool to follow its all right. but when u renot good raid geared yet it's a pain.

What about you make Terror line spell using the double of mana for the double of aggro. If Paladin 's way is to be best Multiple mob aggro holder, Sk's way would be is to be the best single mob aggro holder ( who they are. but a little hand wouldnt hurt ).
 
Finster holds aggro like a champ. About the only time I ever pull aggro off him is if I A) land a huge crit immediately upon engage or B) forget to click off Call of the Mound. And this is with Patriarch equipped.

Holding aggro should be an active function, not a "cast 2 spells and then go fix a soda while the group kills the mob" affair because you created an obscene amount of aggro. If the tank isn't actively trying to generate more aggro, then your group/raid needs more DPS.
 
Garluk said:
Holding aggro should be an active function, not a "cast 2 spells and then go fix a soda while the group kills the mob" affair because you created an obscene amount of aggro. If the tank isn't actively trying to generate more aggro, then your group/raid needs more DPS.
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Eleonor said:
Shout of agony is 18Min recast or something also.
Mob who drop it is 1 group doable tho.
(semi Hijacking the post , sorry. ) :

About aggro spells.
could the dev team looks at it, since server has been ever & ever better AAed & Geared, people generate more & more aggro....
Spamming 7 or 8 Hate spell( AA hate + The both higher level terror spell ) to have aggro back is ridiculous.
Now when i have to break mezz , or having a non slacking bst. in group i always have ( and i do use ) Shroud of nightmare + Curse of years to Lock the aggro on eleonor...

The problem of those spells are :
they re very very often resisted.( on High end exp zone ). I sometime be able to land shroud of nightmare on raid mob ( like Ip trash ).
( and Sk gear seriously lack of CHA :p )
they cost a lot of mana to use it on every mob. When you have a good FT / JB & mana pool to follow its all right. but when u renot good raid geared yet it's a pain.

What about you make Terror line spell using the double of mana for the double of aggro. If Paladin 's way is to be best Multiple mob aggro holder, Sk's way would be is to be the best single mob aggro holder ( who they are. but a little hand wouldnt hurt ).
Click to expand...

You could try using Torrents or Shrouds to hold agro a bit better. They are less mana so it won't hurt as much if you do get resisted and have basically the same effect. I personally use Terror of Kaezul, Terror of Marlow, Terror of Death and Torrent of Hate (so that the Warrior MT can still land Shroud of Pain which Torrent of Pain overwrites) as well as Assault of Shadows.

I agree that Paladins could use a midrange source of AE agro as their only AE agro spells come later in the game. I also strongly agree with Eleonor, Shadowknights need a spell form of AE agro (possibly 250 agro, 250 mana, 25 range, -150 resist mod spell around level 63) as our one form of AE agro is useless after one cast (Wave of Enfeeblement). Paladins are already the masters of AE agro, and have damn nice single target agro as well. Shadowknights are the masters of single target agro, but don't have any 'damn nice' AE agro source, save Shout of Agony, which can't even be called reliable. Possibly give both classes a deity based quest (since we have to be sworn to certain ones) that would give Paladins an unresistable single target agro spell with a 6 second recast, and Shadowknights a resistable (with a heavy -modifier) AE agro spell with an 18 second recast.

Both Paladins and Shadowknights however need a better way to increase the agro they can already generate. As Eleonor said, and as I posted quite awhile ago (to no noticeable effect), Knights agro generation is capped with the spells they use and doesn't get much better with gear. The highest agro spell won't get any higher, while a melee/warriors way to keep agro is mainly dps and agro procs from weapons (minus warriors with cmal gauntlets, although its a big, big part), which gets better and better with equipment.

Of course there are +aggression modifiers (which don't make a big impact), but those are being put on both tank equipment and melee equipment seemingly because bards and monks want to play like tanks too. One possible idea I had would be making +aggression modifiers work double for tank classes.

edit: lol block of text.
 
Putting the post back on track...

I just don't believe that a paladin should have to be 62+ to generate aoe aggro. I know there is a stance that procs an ae hate buff, but it burns stamina very quickly and is not that useful imo.

I was hoping that lower level spells with resist mods comparable to flash of light and stun or some other low level stun/blind could be added in to the paladin spell repertoire so that lower paladins can generate pbaoe aggro.
 
Also, Wave of Might (63) for paladins :toot:

Your point is very valid. A classes main 'role' (AE agro seems to be what most people consider a paladins role to be) shouldn't start in the 60s, it should at the 20s, in the 30s at the very latest.
 
Believe it or not, the paladins group HoT spells generate large amounts of agro and can be quite useful for this purpose at the lower levels as well as the 65+ game.
 
they may generate aggro, but they generate aggro like any other heal. That should not be the onlly method of pbaoe aggro generation for a lowbie pally




/off topic wave of might? i've never seen the spell
 
They generate 'surprising' amounts of agro for just being heal spells. While you won't be able to offset other dps on multi-pulls it's more than sufficient to out agro the healers.
 
Our ae aggro is fine as far as i can tell, sure some places are alittle bit of a pain like Cata and hhk due to blind fear but its still a snap with our AE undead nukes and our ae stun. In other zones AE stun/Blind is a win in almost all places. Our hot is a great way to aggro as well, and our ae hate stance is great for when we are silenced and have to hold aggro. If you are throwing AE blind/AE stun with your hot going and still loosing aggro you need to reaccess your playing tactics. I can see why at lower lvl's you might want a second ae stun or blind, if this actually goes thru then i would like to suggest that it comes with a lvl cap. Like this new blind/ae would not be able to land on anything higher than 58 or something like that even lower perhaps. We own the ae aggro game as we currently are and if the addition of another blind/stun came in it would completely make us unbalanced.


Its a hard fact but we are not really worth a damn until our 60's anyhow.
 
Well i totally agree about what jose wrote.
just a note for jose i always use shroud of nightmare, main reason for aggro, and 2th 's one for the great AC buff it give.
and yeah SHD having a AE hate spell wouldnt hurt
 
Eleonor said:
Well i totally agree about what jose wrote.
just a note for jose i always use shroud of nightmare, main reason for aggro, and 2th 's one for the great AC buff it give.
and yeah SHD having a AE hate spell wouldnt hurt
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Ah, sorry, I was mainly referring to Shrouds/Torrents besides Shroud of Nightmares. The most mana costly torrent is Torrent of Fatigue (58) (which I've never actually used) at 120 mana, most of the other Shrouds/Torrents are in the 50-75 range, while Shroud of Nightmares is a whopping 285. If you are in a group without a warrior, Torrent of Pain will give you the agro you want, as well as the AC buff, while using 100 mana less than Nightmares.
 
i had some pretty LOL experiences grouping with a paladin as our maptank for most of levels 50 to 60. He was a great player, excellent at what he did, but really, there would be lotsa room for lower level AE stun spells. He was constantly going OOM from trying to gain back lost aggro, and he was constantly grouped with an enchanter of similar level giving him mana regen, and he wasn't a spamcaster. Aggro for a paladin pre-65+AAs just sucks.
 
Same for Sk . couldnt even Chain FD split pull and use all hate spell+self lich buff one without mana regen in group :p
 
Paladins have many ways to generate agro... most basic one is hot, and self heals. Ask any healer: heals are TONS of agro. I used to be able to steal agro with zaira just chaining group hots before VoA. Wave of light also is good agro, as well as word of the crusader.

But all these 4 spells have longish recast. Imo wave of light could get a faster recast, since it's not damage, and would help lots with pally aoe agro. As it's atm, it's mostly fades before recast is available.

Now, for SKs...

I was botting eleonor on cmal 3.2 couple nights ago.... and I could hold agro on everything np, using just 7-8 spells per mob, and even being on Zaira almost whole fight. I'd think Cmal 3.2 can be considered quite "high tier" for xp grouping. I think key here is understanding how the other classes' agro work... Slowers generate tons of agro when slowing, then, they stop generating that much agro. Mezzers same when mezzing. DPSers generate constant agro, but they usually can manage it... Only classes that generate constant agro and can't manage are druids, clerics and magicians... Clerics actually have atone... tho it's mostly resisted (maybe a revision on atone resist modifier?) druids and magicians can stop nuking if they're overagroing.... So a SK only has to actually spamm agro on engage. A couple more agro after it, IF group is working properly, is enough....

I mean, SURE that if a wizard stop casting conc gets agro... same of a rogue doesn't evade. But they can do it pretty well. And any worthy SK can generate more agro than a healer.

Tbh I had no problems breaking mezz. 2 terrors, assault of shadows and taunt, and mob 100 % of times on me. floowed by another 2 terros plus taunt... followed by deflux + terror of kaezul... = only lost agro once, cause I went ploss.

If a SK loses agro on a single target mob due to heals can be cause: a) healers are overdoing it, then it's their damned fault. b) SK requires too much heal, that case go to an easier zone.

But I'd agree on a slightly modification on resists on terrors.

So, summing all up.. I'd think paladins would benefit from some mid level wave of light, and a shorter recast on WoL... SKs from modification on terror resists, and clerics from modification on atone. (Really, at level 65, with 400+ cha, atone gets resisted 70 % of time... actually I don't think any cleric ever uses this spell... mostly cause of resist rate. TOO high.)
 
Terror spells aren't resistable, by anything. At all. Mobs that resist everything (couatl things in PoAir come to mind) don't resist Terror spells.

Slows are less than 650 agro, meaning one terror of kaezul is enough to have agro while a caster is slowing (malo too). The only classes that can even hope to out agro me are DPS classes, and thats if I'm not doing my job/not paying attention. The issue with mez spells is that if one mez is cast (lets say Rapture) and then a different mez overwrites it from the same source (lets say complacency) the agro compounds, but if the same spell is cast (Rapture on Rapture by the same source) then only 1 additional agro point is gained. The same can be said of slows and any other debuff.

Torrents and Shrouds (which are resistable and have no resist modifier) don't really need one, as they are very large agro already, and you give up smaller, assured agro for larger, less reliable agro, which is a fair trade IMO.

The problem with shadowknight agro isn't single or double target, its 3-4+ targets. Paladins don't have that problem (in the later stages of the game) unless the mobs have very high Magic Resist, but they still have the great single target agro (albeit less reliable, to a point).
 
Mythryn said:
Terror spells aren't resistable, by anything. At all. Mobs that resist everything (couatl things in PoAir come to mind) don't resist Terror spells.

Slows are less than 650 agro, meaning one terror of kaezul is enough to have agro while a caster is slowing (malo too). The only classes that can even hope to out agro me are DPS classes, and thats if I'm not doing my job/not paying attention. The issue with mez spells is that if one mez is cast (lets say Rapture) and then a different mez overwrites it from the same source (lets say complacency) the agro compounds, but if the same spell is cast (Rapture on Rapture by the same source) then only 1 additional agro point is gained. The same can be said of slows and any other debuff.
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I saw a couple occasional resists on FR mobs while casting terrors.

And, the slow agro is kinda my point... a SK shouldn't have problems over slow... Over mezz? maybe... as you pointed out on diferent mezzes.
 
shanara99 said:
I saw a couple occasional resists on FR mobs while casting terrors.
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Thats not possible. Seriously the Terror (not Torrent) line of spells is set to be unresisable. That really makes me go :what:
 
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