Magician Pets

[cornelweezy]

Here I go. I have tried before to come into S&R and drop my piece, only to get decimated by Aisling's seemingly unlimited wit and win, akin to a British politician before Parliament. I figured (probably dangerously) that since I've been cooking with this idea as of late, I should try yet again.

What inspired the following was my combination of disinterest in playing my magician over my necromancer (for a manifold of reasons best summarized as the Magician's general lack of diversity), as well as a gentle reminiscence of my days playing Live. I know, as well as any, that Shards of Dalaya is not (in it's current incarnation or any previous form) "the game," but I present my idea in hopes of fostering healthy discussion. I'll bold the critical stuff.

I want mage pet classes, but hear me out:

1. The Magician is pedestrian outside of her utility, which is summoning. Unlike the other int casters, who carry useful utilities alongside relatively unique offensive or defensive capabilities (that more or less define them), the Magician's arsenal is limited to incredibly situational point-blank AoEs, a single line of DoTs, and the daunted Rains. I'm not criticizing our already present abilities, just the lack of scope. I see how this argument can quickly become worthy of the "You're a mage, not a ______," but I'd like to see our contributions to a group expanded beyond playing vendor machine.

And I really like playing vendor machine; At first I thought, hell yeah! I could write a wordy post on how mage class functions could be improved by inventing a bunch of balanced summons to suggest; melee friendly augs? Maybe. But every melee 60+ is probably wearing HP or AC augs in all those type-whatever slots. Ranged/Ammo friendly summons that give/limit more hate (via Tarhyl/fire or Sihala/earth) or other useful functions? Maybe, but you can't get stats from the ammo slot, and such an item would have to be awfully unbalanced to compete with the benefits of a typical ranged item used by a decently geared 60+. I even figured, hell, what if Mages could summon lore-items that when used, summoned the user a non-attacking familiar, with varying abilities depending on the familiar? That would be pretty sweet, but then again, it would have to be so situational as to be easily marginalized. Or would it? Plus, I like my classing pet idea better.

2. The Magician cannot survive without her pet. I'm not talking about the tier 5+ 250+AA fully relic'd Magicians who probably have a 65 cleric box and druid box to port/rez them around, alongside the HP, CHA, and mana to dominate entry 65 content with nukes alone, but the typical 1-65 casual magician player (much like myself, although I do have the 65 cleric and druid). In the field, our pet is hardly a tank, but it gets the job done in a pinch on single pulls if focused for the level range and monster summoning is applied appropriately as a panic button. I soloed Yacub most of the levels between 12 and 60 (with some Aisling advice), so this is not a rant about how other pet classes have it easier. This is, however, a commentary about how they have it better. The grab bags that are necromancers and enchanters have enough tricks that they could get by without having their pets summoned at all. I'll be quiet about Beastlords, besides saying they're made of much more besides sheets of cloth.

Considering that it is the pet that defines a Magician offensively, the magician pet should be far set apart skillset wise from his necromancer and beastlord cousins besides a different graphic and different proc. And I don't believe that is currently the case.

3. Classing elemental pets would further distinguish each elemental and would further develop the divide between the magician, wizard, and druid classes. Magicians have four elemental pets to choose from: Fire boasts the strongest DD and a devastating dmg shield; Water slows with a DD component; Air stuns with a DD component; Earth roots. I'm assuming out of lack of research (meaning I only checked the wiki) that all these DD components types are magic based. At lower levels, these effects standalone are all useful depending on the situation or possibly the class being boxed with the magician. Coupled with the Magicians damage shield and nuking ability, the tandem is a force to be reckoned with. However, 60+, I feel the Magician lacks the same expanse in micromanagement that druids and wizards experience since around the late 40s. Where they are called on for crowd control, off healing, buffs, and teleporting, the Magician's role is collapsed in providing peridots (which can be bought), mod rods, damage shields (if a druid is not present or FR isn't necessary), and the occasional CotH.

Classing pets establish the magician by essentially expanding her skillset. There are hundreds of ways these abilities could be implemented. I'd like to see something like the following to stay in tune with the lore of the elements:

Earth -
highest hp
highest mitigation
lowest melee damage
casts root
cast a snare with a lifetap component
casts a low resist taunt with a DD component
heals magician/group mana upon death

Water(ice) -
boosted poison/disease/magic resists
innate chance to crit with weapons
may possibly score another attack with either hand in attack round
casts slow
disarms
intimidates
long duration stun whatever killed it upon death

Fire -
lowest hp
highest melee damage
innate chance to crit with weapons
double attack never fails
casts a self-only damage shield
casts a fire based DD
casts a high hate mana drain
casts a to-hit/atk debuff
enrages at 30% hp
relatively large fire based DD on whatever killed it upon death

Air -
boosted fire/cold/magic resists
double attack never fails
casts stun with a DD component
casts blind
casts a magic based DD with a STA debuff component
casts low resist hate wipe
heals magician/group hp upon death


As far as acquisition of the spells go, I'd like to see the scrolls come in three sets, one questable in the early 50s, one questable in the late 50s, and the last questable in the 60s. They would naturally be no drop. Or they could just replace all the current 51+ pet scrolls, but that wouldn't be nearly as fun.

I think these changes would make the magician overall more fun to play, and expand on the specific functions of the elemental pets of the status quo. And yet still, none of these pets could contend with the firepower of the mage relic pet, protecting it's rank as the ultimate magician pet available.

I tried. And I'll keep dreaming.

 

[neonovas]

the Magician's arsenal is limited to incredibly situational point-blank AoEs, a single line of DoTs, and the daunted Rains.
"You're a mage, not a ______," but I'd like to see our contributions to a group expanded beyond playing vendor machine.

You also left out the DS/FR buff and single target nukes for mages. Your other contribution is DPS. Compare yourself to a rogue in a group, they don't bring summons or buffs, just dps and maybe a lockpick if you're doing Tmaps. Beastlords? Buffs, slow and DPS. Monks? FD pulls and DPS, Wizards? Ports, Blades proc and DPS. Necormancer, FD pulls, FDing healer, DMF and DPS.
Most dps classes will do 1-2 functions , 1 of which is usually buffing, along with their DPS.

The Magician cannot survive without her pet. In the field, our pet is hardly a tank, but it gets the job done in a pinch on single pulls if focused for the level range and monster summoning is applied appropriately as a panic button. I soloed Yacub most of the levels between 12 and 60 (with some Aisling advice), so this is not a rant about how other pet classes have it easier. This is, however, a commentary about how they have it better. The grab bags that are necromancers and enchanters have enough tricks that they could get by without having their pets summoned at all. I'll be quiet about Beastlords, besides saying they're made of much more besides sheets of cloth.

None of those classes are balanced around not having the pet. Glancing at your Gear/AA, i'm going to guess you do mostly tier1-2 and tmaps. A beastlord at that range is probably going to do 80-90DPS, while their pet is going to be doing something like 60-70, he isn't going to kill fast enough to survive without a pet either.
I can't say where you are exping to compare how my pet tanks, but in zones like EC/HHK/FR 1 mob when me chaining the heal my pet can tank it decently, but any tank and decently geared monk/ranger/druid/BST can tank just as good/better.
Enchanter might as well not have the pet out because its practically useless in my experience. I can't speak for necromancers since mine is only lv10. The 1 thing i will say both of these classes have it 'better' when soloing over Mage (and BST) is the ability to root/mezz when they get more than 1 mob.
As for beastlords, they are a leather class and a melee class so obviously they should tank better than a sheet of cloth.

Also - you should mention how they have it 'better'. Because other than root/mezz i couldn't really think of much. I'm assuming you mean soloing as well and then enchanters aren't exactly the best solo class to be jealous of.

However, 60+, I feel the Magician lacks the same expanse in micromanagement that druids and wizards experience since around the late 40s. Where they are called on for crowd control, off healing, buffs, and teleporting, the Magician's role is collapsed in providing peridots (which can be bought), mod rods, damage shields (if a druid is not present or FR isn't necessary), and the occasional CotH.

Yeah wizards micromanagement, LOL? They port people to a place then nuke shit. Read the wizard tome thread, they want to make wizards more than a "1 button class". Wizards are hardly called on for CC and if they are so many other classes can root/mez it doesnt make them special.
Every raid i've been on use mage ds over druid even if FR isnt needed just because it lasts much longer and can be soulbond making for less buffing after a wipe.

As Class pets idea. I have no idea why they didnt keep the class pets that live had, but i'm going to assume that whatever reason it was, is going to be the main reason not to do it now.
Also changing all the pets into classes like that for mages only seems rather unfair to beastlord/necromancers. It would also make the relic pet rather bland in comparison.

 

[kykle]

I had always wondered why mage pets were always so similar. I think it would be great to have 4 totaly different classes that you could summon.

Fire - Caster

The fire pet would have little hp, and no melee attack at all. If it got aggro from anything its going to die, and fast. This fire pet would root its self away from the NPC and nuke/debuf.

Water - Healer/support

The water pet would have medium/high hp and low melee attack. The water pet would act like a druid/shaman in a support role. It would cast dots, cripple/slow and other such things. It would also cast small heals to support the group.

Air - Melee dps

The air pet would have medium hp and HUGE melee attack. The air pet would act like a rogue. If you can get your air pet behind the mob it will backstab, and do a great amount of damage. This pet would not be able to tank for any amount of time at all.

Earth - Tank

This pet would not change a ton, it would still have the most hp of all the pets, and should have some ability to hold aggro. A snare would be a great addition to this pet, as most people dont really like the root it has now.

These would have hard to balance, and i wouldnt want any of them to come near to any other class so that mages could replace them. It would just be great to have the ability to mix things up rather than picking a color that you like and going with that.

Mages do great dps, but imo are lacking in utility. I dont think this would change much for mages on raids, but it would help fill gaps when grouping 1-65.

 

[Cyzaine]

Zae brings up a bunch of points that should not be overlooked. Code team is always swamped, so most changes that require even moderate coding and testing will often fall on deaf ears.

Something I also thing people should note, the 63 elemental mage pets have MASSIVELY better resists in one specific element than the 65 relic mage pet. (Though earth specializes in disease and air in poison arbitrarily). We're talking more than double here.

Since people also seem ignorant on exactly what each pet casts, if you have a spell parser handy, here are the names of the elemental attacks (we are very creative in naming things). For the most part, they don't scale, and are always the same spell regardless of level, unless a series is mentioned.

Fire Elemental:
FireElementalAura
FireElementalAura2
FireElementalAura3
FireElementalAttack

Earth Elemental:
EarthElementalAttack

Water Elemental:
WaterElementalAttack

Air Elemental:
AirElementalAttack

Relic Elemental:
FireElementalAttack
ElementalMasteryAttack


Also I am so very very confused by people whose complaint is mages lack utility. Rogues lack utility. One could argue Wizards lack utility. But Magicians? I'm not sure your definition of utility matches mine.

 

[Ekyu]

Relic pet can tank Kloie in Faentharc. What more can you ask for?

 

[cornelweezy]

Most dps classes will do 1-2 functions , 1 of which is usually buffing, along with their DPS.

I don't understand why fighters are part of this conversation. I figure rogues should only be involved in discussions involving warriors and monks; they don't have spells, gear expectations are totally different, and they aren't a pet class.

Enchanters have the best crowd control, very unique beneficial buffs, and some DPS, plus a very simple (commonly ineffective) pet.

Necromancers are the best sustained DPS, can practically heal themselves (and others to a degree), can rez in wipe situations and have a competitive pet that casts it's own lifetap. Plus, they can cast DMF.

I'm not here begging for chanter or necro nerfs, or asking for mages to be given some role-breaking new line of spells. I just see that as of right now, mages are "in demand" for their dots and DS, and with a little more pet potency, they should be generally better off.

None of those classes are balanced around not having the pet. Glancing at your Gear/AA, i'm going to guess you do mostly tier1-2 and tmaps. A beastlord at that range is probably going to do 80-90DPS, while their pet is going to be doing something like 60-70, he isn't going to kill fast enough to survive without a pet either.

With my necro, at low levels, I didn't even have my pet summoned. I was mostly root/rotting at the time (and I was decently twinked) and the mobs would kill him so fast that resummoning him was a pain. It's not like I needed him as a tank, if the encounter got hot, I could FD and start over.

With my enchanter, I kited with charmed mobs. If stuff got hot, I could root and mez and gate, memblur, whatever. Mind you I only got to 37 and I don't plan on going back, but the strat is there.

Again, I can't talk about BSTs. I only leveled one in SoD to 26. I don't believe they fall into a discussion with int casters, and as a pet class, they still bring a lot of "utility" to groups through buffs, slows, spot heals, what have you.

Yeah wizards micromanagement, LOL? They port people to a place then nuke shit. Read the wizard tome thread, they want to make wizards more than a "1 button class". Wizards are hardly called on for CC and if they are so many other classes can root/mez it doesnt make them special.
Every raid i've been on use mage ds over druid even if FR isnt needed just because it lasts much longer and can be soulbond making for less buffing after a wipe.

To be perfectly honest, I've never played a wizard past level 8. They aren't appealing. But the wizards I've played with before 49+ keep ports and evacs up, certain self only buffs including rune, certain beneficial group buffs, concussion, and a couple nukes of different variety. My spell bar (as a mage) is magic DD, fire DD, magic rain, mod rod, pet heal, shitty root, malo.

/shrug

And again, I'm not talking about relic'd out toons here. Obviously, at the relatively super high end, every mage should be using the relic pet, and I don't want that to change. I just think that pets with a few more pocket abilities throughout the 50s and 60s could be a fun/good idea.

As Class pets idea. I have no idea why they didnt keep the class pets that live had, but i'm going to assume that whatever reason it was, is going to be the main reason not to do it now.

I wonder what that is...?

 

[cornelweezy]

(New code)

Yeah, I hear you. I'm just throwing the idea out there. Is it good enough to warrant dedication and a whole array of new code? Probably not. But then again, those ideas were just toss-outs. I don't care exactly how it's implemented or if it calls for conditions that would need new code.

I'm just putting out the idea.

 

[cornelweezy]

Zae brings up a bunch of points that should not be overlooked. Code team is always swamped, so most changes that require even moderate coding and testing will often fall on deaf ears.

Something I also thing people should note, the 63 elemental mage pets have MASSIVELY better resists in one specific element than the 65 relic mage pet. (Though earth specializes in disease and air in poison arbitrarily). We're talking more than double here.

Since people also seem ignorant on exactly what each pet casts, if you have a spell parser handy, here are the names of the elemental attacks (we are very creative in naming things). For the most part, they don't scale, and are always the same spell regardless of level, unless a series is mentioned.

Fire Elemental:
FireElementalAura
FireElementalAura2
FireElementalAura3
FireElementalAttack

Earth Elemental:
EarthElementalAttack

Water Elemental:
WaterElementalAttack

Air Elemental:
AirElementalAttack

Relic Elemental:
FireElementalAttack
ElementalMasteryAttack


Also I am so very very confused by people whose complaint is mages lack utility. Rogues lack utility. One could argue Wizards lack utility. But Magicians? I'm not sure your definition of utility matches mine.

If this idea is unrealistic or impossible because of projected code demands, then bench it and so be it. I love SoD and appreciate gifts when the staff gives them out, but I was here daydreaming about mages and wrote on it.

Again, I'm confused why we're talking about Rogues. They aren't casters, and have a few rogue only abilities and are a great addition to a group no matter how you slice it.

I wonder if a rogue has ever been turned down from a group because it already had a rogue? I know my mage has.

 

[cornelweezy]

Relic pet can tank Kloie in Faentharc. What more can you ask for?

Spell: Summon Fireworks?

 

[Cyzaine]

I bring up rogues, because when I talk class balance, I like to look at everything involved.

 

[cornelweezy]

I bring up rogues, because when I talk class balance, I like to look at everything involved.

Is this potentially balance-breaking? I figure even with these changes, a magician would be hard pressed to outDPS an educated Rogue.

 

[Cyzaine]

Of course not. But as I mentioned in my other post, I'm not sure our definitions of utility are the same. For example, I don't see magicians as having a utility problem, and I don't believe DPS is a form of utility. But thats what I'm getting out of your posts.

While I tend to come off as abrasive in my forum posts, do not take this as an attack on you, simply a call for clarification.

 

[luciferblack]

Of course not. But as I mentioned in my other post, I'm not sure our definitions of utility are the same. For example, I don't see magicians as having a utility problem, and I don't believe DPS is a form of utility. But thats what I'm getting out of your posts.

While I tend to come off as abrasive in my forum posts, do not take this as an attack on you, simply a call for clarification.

I believe the OP is thinking of utility as "in group" utility. Much of the mage's utility can be had and given away before groups. About the only group utility they have that requires them to be in the group (past the initial summon) is mod rod....maybe CoTH, but that's not used very much in my experience (though it could/would be with a shorter recast timer).

In that case it comes down to their DPS making them valuable in a group. Pretty much that's how it goes...you either offer DPS, Heals, or Utility if you're a caster of any sort. Personally I think the pets are great as is and I don't have an issue with them.

I do think that mages should get at least one more DoT spell as that line comes and goes during the mage progression and it never made sense to me why they would get a few DoT spells and then all the sudden no more after 55. Since mages have no inherent form of aggro reduction available to them (as all other int casters do), it makes sense for them to have another low aggro single target spell such as their 44 and 55 DoTs.

That's about all I could ask for. Aside from that I'm pretty content with my non-ancient, non-relic, 65 mage with 40 something AA's. He holds his own fairly well...even if he hardly ever gets a group...

 

[Nuli]

I have to say I like the idea of an additional DOT at higher level. It seems strange that our DOT line ended without a final high note spell. I'm sure it would be too much to ask that it's not Magic or Fire based, to add to our diversity, cause that would be to Necro'ish. Perhaps a single Cold based DD Nuke instead?
Other than that, I would say the Mage holds his/her own as is, but I would not complain if we were beefed up a bit on the DPS scale.

 

[neonovas]

I don't understand why fighters are part of this conversation. I figure rogues should only be involved in discussions involving warriors and monks; they don't have spells, gear expectations are totally different, and they aren't a pet class.

Enchanters have the best crowd control, very unique beneficial buffs, and some DPS, plus a very simple (commonly ineffective) pet.

Necromancers are the best sustained DPS, can practically heal themselves (and others to a degree), can rez in wipe situations and have a competitive pet that casts it's own lifetap. Plus, they can cast DMF.

I'm not here begging for chanter or necro nerfs, or asking for mages to be given some role-breaking new line of spells. I just see that as of right now, mages are "in demand" for their dots and DS, and with a little more pet potency, they should be generally better off.

I mentioned them because you said mages have little utility. Compared to Rogues/Warriors mages have a TON of utility, as others have mentioned also. I think Enchanters sacrifice DPS for their extra utility as for Necromancers...they do seem to get everything.

With my necro, at low levels, I didn't even have my pet summoned. I was mostly root/rotting at the time (and I was decently twinked) and the mobs would kill him so fast that resummoning him was a pain. It's not like I needed him as a tank, if the encounter got hot, I could FD and start over.

With my enchanter, I kited with charmed mobs. If stuff got hot, I could root and mez and gate, memblur, whatever. Mind you I only got to 37 and I don't plan on going back, but the strat is there.

Necros seem to trade speed for duration in killing stuff. They also dont get very many (or good?) AEs. That or necromancers get everything.
As for enchanters, since you had a charmed pet the "mage without no pet" vs "enchanter with no pet" comparison isn't very valid.

To be perfectly honest, I've never played a wizard past level 8. They aren't appealing. But the wizards I've played with before 49+ keep ports and evacs up, certain self only buffs including rune, certain beneficial group buffs, concussion, and a couple nukes of different variety. My spell bar (as a mage) is magic DD, fire DD, magic rain, mod rod, pet heal, shitty root, malo.

On my wizard my spell bar was normally
Lv60 Ice nuke or Frostflame, Ancient Ice nuke, 5mp nuke, root, concussion, Harvest1, Harvest2, Spellskin (if i had dots). I'll swap to rain/PB depending on what im doing. I've even had up 2 normal nukes, 2 rains, and 2 PBs, and 2 harvests before.
Wizards only get 1 group buff, like mages. They both also share a line of self buffs (shielding and the FR/CR), only self buff wizard gets is the spellskin. Wizards pretty much get nukes and ports as 90% of their spells.

I actually had forgot about Malo, throw debuffing into their utility.

 

[cornelweezy]

I mentioned them because you said mages have little utility. Compared to Rogues/Warriors mages have a TON of utility, as others have mentioned also. I think Enchanters sacrifice DPS for their extra utility as for Necromancers...they do seem to get everything.

yeah, but rogues and warriors aren't spell casters. There should be no assumption they bring multiple skillsets to a group because they aren't built with that kind of potential. Regardless, suffice to say, most groups would probably take a decent warrior or rogue over a mage because of the better survivability or straight up necessity to the group (needs a tank/lockpicker/melee DPS), whereas besides dots and rods, the mage can be marginalized. I'm still not seeing the point of including rogues in this discussion, besides balancing, but then you'd have to include everybody and that gets away from the bottom line of why I started this thread.

Necros seem to trade speed for duration in killing stuff. They also dont get very many (or good?) AEs. That or necromancers get everything.
As for enchanters, since you had a charmed pet the "mage without no pet" vs "enchanter with no pet" comparison isn't very valid.

Necros get everything. But don't nerf them, it's awesome.

As for Enchanters, the larger picture is that they can be effective without using their class specific pet spell, which was my point. I didn't say they were just as effective with no pet at all solo, because they aren't. But, in a group, they don't need a pet to contribute the majority of their class skillset, as mages practically do.

Wizards only get 1 group buff, like mages. T

I actually had forgot about Malo, throw debuffing into their utility.

yeah, but there again, no mage could ever hope to come close to matching wizard DPS with or without pet, relics included or excluded. That's the way it should be.

And mage debuffing is also not that big a deal. Necros debuff nearly as effectively with the scent line, and shamans debuff earlier and better with their malo. I'm not complaining.

Mages are all about their pets. I don't necessarily want their pets EMPOWERED so to speak, as much as I want them diversified and unique and efficient.

 

[vistachiri]

I have to say I like the idea of an additional DOT at higher level. It seems strange that our DOT line ended without a final high note spell. I'm sure it would be too much to ask that it's not Magic or Fire based, to add to our diversity, cause that would be to Necro'ish. Perhaps a single Cold based DD Nuke instead?
Other than that, I would say the Mage holds his/her own as is, but I would not complain if we were beefed up a bit on the DPS scale.

It is weird, but let's face it. The spell would suck anyways based on the lower versions. It's essentially a pvpgriefing spell if you can manage to kill someone with it, and we really don't need to worry about another focus.

I mentioned them because you said mages have little utility. Compared to Rogues/Warriors mages have a TON of utility, as others have mentioned also. I think Enchanters sacrifice DPS for their extra utility as for Necromancers...they do seem to get everything.

Compared to classes that are not supposed to have much if at all utility as their other abilities in various areas are the best of their kind, is a piss poor comparison.

Necros seem to trade speed for duration in killing stuff. They also dont get very many (or good?) AEs. That or necromancers get everything.
As for enchanters, since you had a charmed pet the "mage without no pet" vs "enchanter with no pet" comparison isn't very valid.

Kind of, but no.
Math out the dots. Then tell me how much damage per second. Go ahead. I can wait.

On my wizard my spell bar was normally
Lv60 Ice nuke or Frostflame, Ancient Ice nuke, 5mp nuke, root, concussion, Harvest1, Harvest2, Spellskin (if i had dots). I'll swap to rain/PB depending on what im doing. I've even had up 2 normal nukes, 2 rains, and 2 PBs, and 2 harvests before.
Wizards only get 1 group buff, like mages. They both also share a line of self buffs (shielding and the FR/CR), only self buff wizard gets is the spellskin. Wizards pretty much get nukes and ports as 90% of their spells.

I actually had forgot about Malo, throw debuffing into their utility.

Nukes, ports, don't forget the resist lines, tl's (which I'd consider seperately from ports due to the superiority of not having to go with someone, mostly for weighting against other porting classes), pet that gives various things, depending on which (mana regen + healing/dps etc), harvests, roots, snares, rbows, lures, manadrains, worthwhile destroys, stuns (yes, you get at least one), levi, selfrune, blades, invis, IVU, the same line as mages tils ward (just does not go up as high), shadowstep for some reason, combined fr levi ds (okeils selfbuff), oh and some vision options. Don't think I forgot anything wizards can do. Oh! and 5m nukes.



I'm curious as to your definitions of utility, judging by comments made, I can only guess that it is fairly narrow. Necro alone I could list somewhere around 20 different things. Rogues most forget the whole trap deal, and pickpocketing, as well as a minigame meant entirely for them and bards, and a easy repeatable alignment maxer. Beastlords, monks and wizards also have quite a bit.

Keep in mind, things like root, snare, mez, ports, are all utility, selfrunes, the resists lines, are all utility right on down to levi's, waterbreathing, invis, ivu, etc. Counting all of it. Oh, and lifetaps count too, obviously. The ability to heal yourself, certainly should never be overlooked in terms of class balance.

Compared to many classes with higher dps, mages have far less utility. Even compared to many classes where utility is looking at being expanded, we have less (I'm aware that was an awkward sentence).

As for the pets. Long has there been absolutely no reason to use the 63 earth pet. Fire also blows, due to it's lack of hp's and inability to take a hit, when it is getting hit, which is generally often. Air and water have long been the only pets you should be using anyways post 63. The general prices of the pet spells in market have also long reflected this (earth for example was purchaseable regularly at 500, when water and air went for 2k, and fire was 1-1.5k).

I'd like to see them get some sort of use, more interesting and unique abilities for them might be nice, but I have a feeling that air and water will still be used almost to exclusion.

And mage debuffing is also not that big a deal. Necros debuff nearly as effectively with the scent line, and shamans debuff earlier and better with their malo. I'm not complaining.

It is and isn't. My major problem with a few of our utility areas, is that someone else, who does like 400 other things better, already does the few things we do, better. Such as in the area of malo. Druid ds is also a constant frustration.

Also, you're not quite correct. As a mage you can in fact outdps a wizard. In the right set of circumstances. Generally this requires 2 targets standing on top of each other that are heavily mr debuffed and have a fuckload of hp.

Of course the only real reason you'll pass them is because most park their ass when they're out of mana and do nothing.

 

[neonovas]

I'm curious as to your definitions of utility, judging by comments made, I can only guess that it is fairly narrow. Necro alone I could list somewhere around 20 different things. Rogues most forget the whole trap deal, and pickpocketing, as well as a minigame meant entirely for them and bards, and a easy repeatable alignment maxer. Beastlords, monks and wizards also have quite a bit.

It's narrow because i grouped all nukes into doing "dps", all buffs as 1, debuffs as 1, etc. I was lazy

Nukes, ports, don't forget the resist lines, tl's, pet that gives various things, depending on which (mana regen + healing/dps etc), harvests, roots, snares, rbows, lures, manadrains, worthwhile destroys, stuns (yes, you get at least one), levi, selfrune, blades, invis, IVU, the same line as mages tils ward (just does not go up as high), shadowstep for some reason, combined fr levi ds (okeils selfbuff), oh and some vision options. Don't think I forgot anything wizards can do. Oh! and 5m nukes.

Actually you left out the PBaoe Stun at 63, dispels, 1 of the 49 pets do a slow (the other 49+relic heal as you mentioned), the root+nukes (1 at 40, other is from the stupid RSM camp and has a 30min CD), and the single target stun is an entire line. Counting TL's separete, I'd also count Mass Ports as extra too. The IVU is also self only. I haven't played my wizard in a while so i forgot a few (like Okeils being amazing) and I generalized.
Whats the mana drain called?

I also left off a big list of what mages get, like Searfires, awesome pet weapons, levi (from summoned item), EB (from summoned item), weightless bags, FT staff (which i admit aren't super useful), haste rings, arrows (2nd best in the game?), summoned vision necklace, all the regents before dots, long lasting stat food & water, pet fear immunity buff, pet death save, pet sow, pet agro buff, self AC/hp regen (wont stack with aego), Malo, monster summons, pet that can stun, pet that can slow, root, DS+FR buff, invis/see invis, CotH, dispel and probably missed a few. When listing out each individual situational spell type most classes look like they have a lot of utility.

Compared to many classes with higher dps, mages have far less utility. Even compared to many classes where utility is looking at being expanded, we have less (I'm aware that was an awkward sentence)

It made sense to me.
I would also agree that Earth/Fire pets could use some love.

 

[cornelweezy]

I also left off a big list of what mages get, like Searfires, awesome pet weapons, levi (from summoned item), EB (from summoned item), weightless bags, FT staff (which i admit aren't super useful), haste rings, arrows (2nd best in the game?), summoned vision necklace, all the regents before dots, long lasting stat food & water, pet fear immunity buff, pet death save, pet sow, pet agro buff, self AC/hp regen (wont stack with aego), Malo, monster summons, monster summons, pet that can stun, pet that can slow, root, DS+FR buff, invis/see invis, CotH, dispel and probably missed a few. When listing out each individual situational spell type most classes look like they have a lot of utility.

eh, you didn't really leave them off, they aren't important. Yeah, summons like searfire and pet weapons (where we can also group haste rings and all the pet buffs) are about as useful as peridots and mod rods and that's "well, that's cool" but it doesn't necessarily make the mage the class you want or seek for a balanced group.

the vision neck, lev, see invis, and EB items are all worthless unless you're soloing and don't have access to certain boxed toons, because SoE and DMF obsolete them right away (I have access to these toons, or could easily ask my guild for the buffs, just like they can ask me for dots and DS before they set out on their adventures). Every int caster, priest, and even shadowknights gets dispel. The DS is generally outdone by druid DS unless you're raiding and need the FR. Let's be clear here, Mages really aren't that unique under my definition of utility, Aisling's definition, or even your definition, and just listing the different spells we get doesn't really equate to a variety of function.

Newbs are a different case. From time to time, you'll see me in /ooc offering newbs free summons. lvl1s benefit from the vast majority of our 34+ summoned items (besides low level gems) than the 49+ mage ever will.

Mages are a vending machine pet class. I'm not complaining about that. I just basically want our pets to be more flashy and exciting. uh, plus all that stuff Aisling said about the fire and earth pets, although I've managed to work them into the rotation from time to time depending on the group. I do see the weaknesses.

 

[neonovas]

Yeah, summons like searfire and pet weapons (where we can also group haste rings and all the pet buffs) are about as useful as peridots and mod rods and that's "well, that's cool" but it doesn't necessarily make the mage the class you want or seek for a balanced group.

I'd say most classes are in a similar position in most zones. I haven't ever heard "oh we cant do _____ without a beastlord", pretty much only hear that about bards or monks.