Dalayan Pious Diety
airek lost aggro to a cleric auto attacking with a cella about 10 seconds in to a fight before, despite him going full aggro mode. Paladin aggro is an absolute joke at high tiers.


Dalayan Adventurer
*Cue me not knowing how to play my class*

Also, I haven’t seen a bear since the one you know of thank god.
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Staff member
More changes to come to at least styles which there are some pretty bad deprecated ones. Bash damage might be reduced some to come.


Dalayan Adventurer
DPS 2 tiers ahead of you pulling aggro off you if they don't manage it is p.much WAD.

Others have backed it up, paladin agro is terrible.

If thats working as designed; The design is shit.

And the nonchalant dismissive attitude from a staff memeber may explain the population.

But that's none of my business.


Dalayan Adventurer
guy who mained paladin for years and i approve of this message
if i spam blinds i can barely keep up with a warrior who just auto attacks at the same tier
since the new aggro spell (never got up to r2) came out it's a little better, but still nothing to write home about. class requires too much effort to hold aggro to the point where you have to choose between losing aggro and healing yourself.


The paladin rotation is a mess. is r2 while making paladin threat better makes their utility take a nose dive and is pretty counter intuitive to keeping yourself alive. Their single target stuns generate very little aggro, so you basically have to rely on the refuge rain + the blind trick to generate any amount of threat which is really silly. If you're a new player and don't understand how blinds work you're in for a bad time.


Dalayan Beginner
Is there plans up upping pally dps via other methods than bash if that is getting reduced. Maybe I’m way off, but even with bash as is, it still feels dps lite.


Dalayan Beginner
I have been successful in keeping aggro, but I be pushing buttons and hotkeys nonstop and casting nonstop. So my dps will be minimal. I can maintain aggro with R2, and often steal it. However, if I don't get the jump on a mob with an early blind, it can be difficult to rip. But I will rip, maybe after either the monk or the ranger dies, but I will rip with my setup.

Oh and with R2, I just let it lapse for a moment to do all self heals, then drop it, and keep it up until self heals up again. When im running ghot, i just let it run while R2 is on.

As far as stances, I had hoped for a stamina intensive stance with better defense than /s3, possibly a heal proc for when tanking and situational when stuff goes wrong. Like monk/bard stances for avoid.

I will never stop maining my paladin, unless I am done. And according to my severe addiction to this game, that is not an option ;0


Dalayan Adventurer
i feel like paladin /s 5 (crit stance) should provide a much higher crit chance than it does, it's barely noticeable as of right now
or maybe it could be just an explicitly undead crit stance that makes every hit crit but takes stamina for every single hit
dunno, but stances are definitely meh (especially that one aoe hate proc stance, completely useless and also overwrites regular blinds so you can't hold aggro)


Dalayan Master
Jyre helps a heap with passive paladin aggro generation. knight weapons suck throughout the majority of the game and offer very little aggro. Not too sure how craedyl is on a paladin but it probably is pretty good.


Dalayan Pious Diety
How about on tier DPS generating more threat than you can ever hope to while you go balls out and they try to manage aggro?
That is not WAD. And for all I know, that is one of the things Rymy is looking into.


Staff member
Curently I am interested in finding actual numbers for tank classes. I have been writing some test scripts that report exact amount of healing each tank can generate versus different situations. Beyond this i’m going to cause a certain amount of predefined damage to each archetype of tank and have it report total mitigation. (It will tell me when there is a block or dodge for instance).

These tests can also accelerate parsing times by scripting way more damage/attacks in a shorter time than a live experience can give you.

(As I write this I'm reminding myself to do a similar test for hate generation)

I feel these numbers will give us a solid perspective of where changes can be made.

Edit: Another factor is class definition. I am more in favour of changes that strengthen class roles rather than equalizing everything.
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Dalayan Elder
You probably know this, but just in case. During the bst revamp, taryth made a nice parse script in PoWar that would output any info you wanted to see every 10sec. We'd summon different types of mobs to get a feel for each tweak to get an overall feel. I'm sure you could add to that for the Knight changes and bring ppl in.


Dalayan Adventurer
So folks can see somewhat realistic bash stats. I did three bloodfire clears yesterday, which showed 115 bash dps through the course of the clears. I checked my one clear today which matched it pretty precisely.

Here's the total time I spent:

Here's the dps breakdown:

The bash attempts come out to pressing bash on cooldown 57.5% of the time. If I could magically keep it up 100% of the time, it would increase to ~230dps.

Rujik Shoulders with 60 AC
Meteoric Girdle has bane 10
Glory of Enthann
49% Worn haste
Capped 2hs modifiers
Runic 2 up as often as possible
/s 9 2 Hander Stance up as often as possible (lower mitigation so had to swap occasionally to survive certain pulls)

This is what tryhard T13-14 Paladin numbers look like and it requires quite a bit of effort.
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Dalayan Elder
I was doing the same mobs for about 6 hours yesterday afternoon and pulled around 1127 dps on Ovisha with Craedyl / Core, bane 10, DS, 50% haste over that entire period averaged, just for a comparison reference.
I personally don't think bash should be nerfed from what its currently at. It's been the only thing boosting their already mediocre dps by such a small amount, and to decrease that back down seems backwards to me.

I really don't know what's in the pipeline, nor have we gotten Airek the new spell, but I think it'll take more than bash + stances to fix their situation.

- Hate levels on blinds / stuns should get buffed, and either splurt or do hate over time (blinds mainly).
- Lower mana cost on certain things, or help mana sustain somehow (most of these suggestions help with that)
- Runic HoT should draw aggro similar to veil.
---- Lustration - "A rite of purification, especially washing. The restoration of credibility to a government by the purging of perpetrators of crimes committed under an earlier regime."
---- To me this says "take hate from anyone under this spell effect and transfer it to the paladin"
- They just need some sort of damage from a spell. It's pretty crazy they have no damage spells whatsoever aside from the 300 base dmg rain from Refuge and 200 base dmg AE stun.
- R2 should have a 5m+ duration and shouldn't nerf healing, especially not by 50% crit chance. Another suggestion I had would even be to increase mitigation but that should probably come from another source.

Stances on top of this will probably bring some good benefits.
Paladins shouldn't have to cast a spell on every global cooldown just to maintain aggro, and then somehow worry about self healing through all that.
I've played a Shadowknight for maybe 12 hours combined so I have not much to say about what can make them better.


Dalayan Pious Diety
- Runic HoT should draw aggro similar to veil.
---- Lustration - "A rite of purification, especially washing. The restoration of credibility to a government by the purging of perpetrators of crimes committed under an earlier regime."

Did they ever undo the nerfs to paladin hots generating aggro? Its been a really long time and maybe that should happen too
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