Is the vendor system definitely done for?
- Thread starter hooden
- Start date
Just my opinion, but without some type of non-active barter system you'll end up with one of these 2 scenarios:
1) If the suggested "viewable inventory" system is implemented, the market zone will be full of bots with an AFK msg of /tell main-char-name-here if you see something you are interested in. This seems fair to everyone unless for some reason you are unable to dual client but it also contributes to the server load somewhat. Is this really any different from the bazaar on live?
2) Prices will skyrocket on the lower end items. Higher end players are not going to stand around trying to sell that 10/26 sword for 45pp, it simply isn't worth the effort. That sword will either rot on the corpse or get a first hand introduction to the destroy button. They won't bother lugging it back to the bank in hopes of selling it via hours of spamming /auc. Other examples are lower end tradeskill items, like JC. Will they bother to make the +4 str jewelry if they are going to have to peddle it manually? Not without seriously boosting profit margins. General prices on higher end droppables will trend upward somewhat, but not catastrophically since they will still be worth the effort to sell. But since you will have to catch someone actively selling, there will be a perceived scarcity which will raise the average selling price. The end result will be that the same players that are disadvantaged under the current system (mostly ones new to the server and/or of lower level) will be even more hampered by the reduced availability of goods AND increased prices.
I certainly do agree that the current system is unfair. First come, first served, shit outta luck if you aren't there is inherently unfair. I was fortunate enough to glance at my IRC window when the vendors got cycled recently and was one of the lucky few that hit the lotto. But I don't think a system that requires all purchases to be interactive is the answer.
And what about the players that don't play during peak times? Their customer base will be bascially non-existant.
1) If the suggested "viewable inventory" system is implemented, the market zone will be full of bots with an AFK msg of /tell main-char-name-here if you see something you are interested in. This seems fair to everyone unless for some reason you are unable to dual client but it also contributes to the server load somewhat. Is this really any different from the bazaar on live?
2) Prices will skyrocket on the lower end items. Higher end players are not going to stand around trying to sell that 10/26 sword for 45pp, it simply isn't worth the effort. That sword will either rot on the corpse or get a first hand introduction to the destroy button. They won't bother lugging it back to the bank in hopes of selling it via hours of spamming /auc. Other examples are lower end tradeskill items, like JC. Will they bother to make the +4 str jewelry if they are going to have to peddle it manually? Not without seriously boosting profit margins. General prices on higher end droppables will trend upward somewhat, but not catastrophically since they will still be worth the effort to sell. But since you will have to catch someone actively selling, there will be a perceived scarcity which will raise the average selling price. The end result will be that the same players that are disadvantaged under the current system (mostly ones new to the server and/or of lower level) will be even more hampered by the reduced availability of goods AND increased prices.
I certainly do agree that the current system is unfair. First come, first served, shit outta luck if you aren't there is inherently unfair. I was fortunate enough to glance at my IRC window when the vendors got cycled recently and was one of the lucky few that hit the lotto. But I don't think a system that requires all purchases to be interactive is the answer.
And what about the players that don't play during peak times? Their customer base will be bascially non-existant.
Well, I don't know if I should post this in the sticky or not, but postin here I guarantee I won't be asked why I didn't read the enlarged text 
.
First of all, I agree with most, if not all, of the stated by Garluk. And I think he really explained well.
I recently got a vendor (after the revamp). And after using it for several weeks, I do think it's unfair not having a vendor. Before I had one, my alts (as well as my best friend's alts) were full of crap items I didn't felt like spending the time to sell. I also had abandoned the only tradeskill I had gotten past 100 in SoD: Alchemy. I don't much time to play (or at least I feel like it), and I never liked EC tunnel with lots of auctions, shouts and such. It stressed me as someone said.
An automated selling system, like the one we have right now, gives time to the player to play, even though someone could call standing quiet in a zone hitting your WTS-macro every now and then playing (you may see it dramatized, I see it this way). But I understand it needs to be available not only to a selected group of people, but to the lowbie who just got half a kpp and would do anything but keep it to buy a vendor.
So before I lose the hope on some revamp of the current system, I'll try to give a couple ideas that could help it be fairer.
1.- Make the automated vendors earn their money from their sales (instead of receiving it from the owner).
This point would help avoiding inactive vendors... but it's not perfect. Someone could just log an alt, buy the item, postmaster it back and put it back on the vendor, while losing some pps (aka handing 100 pps to the vendor) to keep the vendor up.
Unless some fair formula is found to calculate the vendor's tax, it would still prevent players with low funds from keeping a vendor. The formula may be something like "Each day 1 (rl), I must have claimed (at least) an 1% of the total value (put by the owner) of my sales, and I keep claiming 10% of any sold item to reach that quantity". This "formula" also penalizes over-priced (aka vendor-banking) items. But we still have the problem of who owns a vendor and where, which are really important.
2.- Make a merchant area around major cities (details below).
I think this picks some ideas I've already read somewhere else (don't take it personally if it does).
It would consist in a vendor area (small area, like the arena in Newport ;P, with lots of Vendors in it separated by like 2 steps one from each other), where each vendor can hold 5 items to up to 10 people (more if possible).
By limiting the number of items to a such reduced number, you force people to free space, and thus skipping vendor-banking. You can still spare your sales between the different cities, to a maximum of 20 items right now (Newport, Oggok, Halas and Grobb)
It also provides vendoring room for more players, and you could even let them work without an initial fee so that lowbies can benefit from it.
So how does the npc vendor get profit to maintain his wife and 2 children? He could simply claim a 10% of any sold item, even if it's "sold" back to the owner (aka removed from the vendor). If you don't want to buy back an item, but want to free a slot, you could just "donate" the item to the vendor and his family (nuke the item). For any stacked item, I would let it hold 5 full stacks of it before occupying a new slot.
The problem I see is the lack of place in cities like Grobb or Halas (at least the former). As well as the "impersonal" trait of the vendor npc, which I like.
Well, I'll think of more ideas until I lose my hope.
Ah, one more thing: ;(
.First of all, I agree with most, if not all, of the stated by Garluk. And I think he really explained well.
I recently got a vendor (after the revamp). And after using it for several weeks, I do think it's unfair not having a vendor. Before I had one, my alts (as well as my best friend's alts) were full of crap items I didn't felt like spending the time to sell. I also had abandoned the only tradeskill I had gotten past 100 in SoD: Alchemy. I don't much time to play (or at least I feel like it
), and I never liked EC tunnel with lots of auctions, shouts and such. It stressed me as someone said.An automated selling system, like the one we have right now, gives time to the player to play, even though someone could call standing quiet in a zone hitting your WTS-macro every now and then playing (you may see it dramatized, I see it this way). But I understand it needs to be available not only to a selected group of people, but to the lowbie who just got half a kpp and would do anything but keep it to buy a vendor.
So before I lose the hope on some revamp of the current system, I'll try to give a couple ideas that could help it be fairer.
1.- Make the automated vendors earn their money from their sales (instead of receiving it from the owner).
This point would help avoiding inactive vendors... but it's not perfect. Someone could just log an alt, buy the item, postmaster it back and put it back on the vendor, while losing some pps (aka handing 100 pps to the vendor) to keep the vendor up.
Unless some fair formula is found to calculate the vendor's tax, it would still prevent players with low funds from keeping a vendor. The formula may be something like "Each day 1 (rl), I must have claimed (at least) an 1% of the total value (put by the owner) of my sales, and I keep claiming 10% of any sold item to reach that quantity". This "formula" also penalizes over-priced (aka vendor-banking) items. But we still have the problem of who owns a vendor and where, which are really important.
2.- Make a merchant area around major cities (details below).
I think this picks some ideas I've already read somewhere else (don't take it personally if it does
).It would consist in a vendor area (small area, like the arena in Newport ;P, with lots of Vendors in it separated by like 2 steps one from each other), where each vendor can hold 5 items to up to 10 people (more if possible).
By limiting the number of items to a such reduced number, you force people to free space, and thus skipping vendor-banking. You can still spare your sales between the different cities, to a maximum of 20 items right now (Newport, Oggok, Halas and Grobb)
It also provides vendoring room for more players, and you could even let them work without an initial fee so that lowbies can benefit from it.
So how does the npc vendor get profit to maintain his wife and 2 children? He could simply claim a 10% of any sold item, even if it's "sold" back to the owner (aka removed from the vendor). If you don't want to buy back an item, but want to free a slot, you could just "donate" the item to the vendor and his family (nuke the item). For any stacked item, I would let it hold 5 full stacks of it before occupying a new slot.
The problem I see is the lack of place in cities like Grobb or Halas (at least the former). As well as the "impersonal" trait of the vendor npc, which I like.
Well, I'll think of more ideas until I lose my hope.
Ah, one more thing: ;(
Having started on SoD with enough money to purchase a vendor, yet unable to do this unitl the recent vendor kill; I have seen both sides of the fence. I LOVE having a vendor, I make tons of plat now because I have a vendor. Is this fair? Nope, not at all. I look back to when I couldn't get a vendor because sooo many folks purchased them and then left the game or used them as closet space, etc. I felt like I had been treated unfairly, I have the cash, why can't I purchase one? And why am I forced to finally purchase one in Grobb where not all folks can browse my stuff, etc.? To me, the limited amount of vendors in itself makes this system unfair.
The arguments to keep the current system to me are just not enough. Yeah, having vendors in game makes it easier for folks to purchase things that are not being auctioned. And yeah, having vendors probably does make it easier for lower ends to obtain items they may not be able to get via /auc. ETC.,ETC.,ETC. However, one thing those against losing the current system are forgetting about is: We are going to have a different system put in, so no you won't just have to spam /auc over and over again. We have to keep that in mind, and when doing so, it's easier to see the unfairness of the current system.
I'm glad that a new system is in the makes. Hopefully, this new system makes it fair to all that have goods to sell and still makes it easy enough for lower end players to purchase the goods they want.
The arguments to keep the current system to me are just not enough. Yeah, having vendors in game makes it easier for folks to purchase things that are not being auctioned. And yeah, having vendors probably does make it easier for lower ends to obtain items they may not be able to get via /auc. ETC.,ETC.,ETC. However, one thing those against losing the current system are forgetting about is: We are going to have a different system put in, so no you won't just have to spam /auc over and over again. We have to keep that in mind, and when doing so, it's easier to see the unfairness of the current system.
I'm glad that a new system is in the makes. Hopefully, this new system makes it fair to all that have goods to sell and still makes it easy enough for lower end players to purchase the goods they want.
Danku
Dalayan Beginner
I was within 1 minute of purchasing a vendor when Talamr beat me too it. I do multiple tradeskills and my banks are overflowing. I have always bitched about the vendor system and the favortism it shows, and Wiz, thank you for stating your clear opinion.
This is an MMPORG, right? R is for ROLE. No role in an automated system. You want to sell, then make the conscious decision to go do that VS XPing. You want to sell fast? Drop prices, be there when the big crowd is, do whatever it takes.
Short of everyone getting their own vendor, there was nothing to save in the old system.
This is an MMPORG, right? R is for ROLE. No role in an automated system. You want to sell, then make the conscious decision to go do that VS XPing. You want to sell fast? Drop prices, be there when the big crowd is, do whatever it takes.
Short of everyone getting their own vendor, there was nothing to save in the old system.
Where's the roleplaing in "/auc WTS this_and_that, PST" ? Interacting with a vendor NPC isn't against R, it's against the second M.Danku said:
Let's see how many people roleplay their characters at the new "market" other than spending 10 more seconds when setting up the hotkey for the auction.
Danku
Dalayan Beginner
Years ago (on Povar and Mith marr) players had fun and were creative with their /auction calls. It does not have to be hotkeys of /auction WTS XXX , XXX, XXX it can be
/auction I am selling this XXX from the greatest depths of the frogloks lair, lives were lost to acquire it! The fine workmanship can be seen in the handle!
People will find creativity will enhance their sales. Some people actually care about the R in RPG.
/auction I am selling this XXX from the greatest depths of the frogloks lair, lives were lost to acquire it! The fine workmanship can be seen in the handle!
People will find creativity will enhance their sales. Some people actually care about the R in RPG.
I am the first one to agree that the current vendor system is terribly unfair. The main problem with the current system is that there are not enough vendors to go around, so anyone who does not currently have one is screwed. I do not think the vendors are too impersonal, or make towns look ugly.
I have, on various occasions, bought up supplies from lower level tradeskillers and placed them on my vendors when I had room.
I think allowing multiple people to use a single vendor is a great idea. Of course you would have to limit the available slots, but this would force people to be selective of what they want to sell. I would not, for example, be able to have full sets of wyvern, wyrm, hopper, drake, and panther hide all for sale at the same time. I also would not longer be using my extra slots on my vendor for storage, nor would those overpriced items still be overpriced because I have not gotten around to changing them to somethign more reasonable.
I like the fact that I dont have to be online to make a sale.
On the other hand, being able to sell everything on vendors has a number of effects on the economy, both good and bad. Some items have become way underpriced for the value, simply because folks can afford to make very little profit since all they need to do is click combine, put it on the vendor,and wait. At the same time, there are hundreds of items sitting on vendors that have been there for months because they are overpriced.
So, it seems to me that there are 4 problems with the new vendors (I am not counting how they look, as I kindof like them being in town):
1. Not enough to go around. This is clearly the biggest flaw in teh current system.
2. Overpriced items taking up space forever. This essentially makes many of the vendors useless.
3. People able to drive others out of business by selling tradeskill items for less than the value of the components.
4. Personal interaction is removed from the transaction. Personally, I dont see this as that much of a problem, although it does reflect on issues 2 and 3.
This leaves the wuestion of how to address each of these issues. Eliminating vendors and making people /auc to sell their wares will address all the issues, but is mroe than a little inconvenient, as you need to drop a raid ro XP group when you want to sell/buy.
Making vendors available to multiple people, with a limited number of slots per toon (account?) would help address issue #1, btu you would still have folks selling at rediculous prices, on both ends of the spectrum. Charging a percentage on the items AND limiting the number of slots would force folks to charge reasonable prices, or lose money.
I know Wiz stated that vendors are going away, without question, but I would like to see the ability to make sales when not online remain.
I have, on various occasions, bought up supplies from lower level tradeskillers and placed them on my vendors when I had room.
I think allowing multiple people to use a single vendor is a great idea. Of course you would have to limit the available slots, but this would force people to be selective of what they want to sell. I would not, for example, be able to have full sets of wyvern, wyrm, hopper, drake, and panther hide all for sale at the same time. I also would not longer be using my extra slots on my vendor for storage, nor would those overpriced items still be overpriced because I have not gotten around to changing them to somethign more reasonable.
I like the fact that I dont have to be online to make a sale.
On the other hand, being able to sell everything on vendors has a number of effects on the economy, both good and bad. Some items have become way underpriced for the value, simply because folks can afford to make very little profit since all they need to do is click combine, put it on the vendor,and wait. At the same time, there are hundreds of items sitting on vendors that have been there for months because they are overpriced.
So, it seems to me that there are 4 problems with the new vendors (I am not counting how they look, as I kindof like them being in town):
1. Not enough to go around. This is clearly the biggest flaw in teh current system.
2. Overpriced items taking up space forever. This essentially makes many of the vendors useless.
3. People able to drive others out of business by selling tradeskill items for less than the value of the components.
4. Personal interaction is removed from the transaction. Personally, I dont see this as that much of a problem, although it does reflect on issues 2 and 3.
This leaves the wuestion of how to address each of these issues. Eliminating vendors and making people /auc to sell their wares will address all the issues, but is mroe than a little inconvenient, as you need to drop a raid ro XP group when you want to sell/buy.
Making vendors available to multiple people, with a limited number of slots per toon (account?) would help address issue #1, btu you would still have folks selling at rediculous prices, on both ends of the spectrum. Charging a percentage on the items AND limiting the number of slots would force folks to charge reasonable prices, or lose money.
I know Wiz stated that vendors are going away, without question, but I would like to see the ability to make sales when not online remain.
re
Hi,
I am a new player on this server from about 2 weeks ago. I already used vendors and I dont see why its unfair. I found my newbie items on there, when I was searching for a sword in my lvl 20 for 20pp ish well I found one on vendor. I have no idea what you talk about when you say its unfair ? I am very poor and always found low items priced on them..
Sald Silvermoon
Hi,
I am a new player on this server from about 2 weeks ago. I already used vendors and I dont see why its unfair. I found my newbie items on there, when I was searching for a sword in my lvl 20 for 20pp ish well I found one on vendor. I have no idea what you talk about when you say its unfair ? I am very poor and always found low items priced on them..
Sald Silvermoon
I don't use the vendors, mostly because from what I've found their items are mostly ones way out of my price range for being such a low level. Plus if I am looking for 1 or 2 things in particular it's quite time consuming to search through each one in all the towns. I'd much rather /auction WTB xxx, please send me a tell.
But as far as coming up with a suggestion for it, at this point I am at a loss. Been throwing things around with a buddy of mine, but nothing makes sense or sounds better than what is there now.
This is one of the more difficult solutions to come up with given it's nature, and the lack of any type of initial system to work with/modify.
But as far as coming up with a suggestion for it, at this point I am at a loss. Been throwing things around with a buddy of mine, but nothing makes sense or sounds better than what is there now.
This is one of the more difficult solutions to come up with given it's nature, and the lack of any type of initial system to work with/modify.
What's unfair is that no one else can buy a vendor now becuase they are all taken. Anyone can purchase what they have to offer, but no one can use them to sell their items unless they alreayd have one.
So, as the system stands, you will probably never be able to use any of the existing vendors to sell anything.
So, as the system stands, you will probably never be able to use any of the existing vendors to sell anything.
everyon
Everyone here has some good points ....vendor owners, players..imps....
As stated in another post ( under a new thread DOH ) ...I worked very hard to get a vendor and yes it is definately a luxury. But I also work very hard to keep a good flow of decently priced items on my vendor...sometimes I am overpriced but at other times I am very cheap....
I also feel that the vendors add a great flavor to the cities, while yes they do create a bit of city clutter, well so does the bank...that place is always packed and laggy...
2cents...
Keep current player vendors but make the fee weekly...something higher to accentuate the luxury of having a vendor as vending is a luxury and should be a bit more expensive.
Add in whatever system you want to encompass a degree of fairness and cheapness for all the other players.
( I dont know what this should be )
See if the old vending system dies out....
This would give everyone an automated form of selling stuff at a fair price, and give players who want to pay the higher weekly or monthly rates the ability to keep the luxury of having a vendor.
just some thoughts on a heated subject...
Everyone here has some good points ....vendor owners, players..imps....
As stated in another post ( under a new thread DOH ) ...I worked very hard to get a vendor and yes it is definately a luxury. But I also work very hard to keep a good flow of decently priced items on my vendor...sometimes I am overpriced but at other times I am very cheap....
I also feel that the vendors add a great flavor to the cities, while yes they do create a bit of city clutter, well so does the bank...that place is always packed and laggy...
2cents...
Keep current player vendors but make the fee weekly...something higher to accentuate the luxury of having a vendor as vending is a luxury and should be a bit more expensive.
Add in whatever system you want to encompass a degree of fairness and cheapness for all the other players.
( I dont know what this should be )
See if the old vending system dies out....
This would give everyone an automated form of selling stuff at a fair price, and give players who want to pay the higher weekly or monthly rates the ability to keep the luxury of having a vendor.
just some thoughts on a heated subject...
luciferblack
Dalayan Elder
I'm all in favor of going back to /auc
I hated the bazaar when Luclin came out. It killed the fun of the marketplace. People who complain about being too busy to sell...come on. Everyone has down time. I had a vendor before the crash (and sadly lost the money i paid for it when WR went down), but that was when there were still vendors available for peolpe. At that point it was fair. The way it is now, with them so spread out and none available for anyone to use, and more than a few being used as guild storage or tradeskill mules, it's a crap system.
I think the interaction with other players from selling will do the server good as well. I mean how many times have you looked for player made items on a vendor and saw some and went "Oh they have everything except the legs" or "Oh that potion is great, but I need _____" Well with the old /auc system you can see someone sellign their goods and actually ASK tem a question.
That's my thoughts anyway.
I hated the bazaar when Luclin came out. It killed the fun of the marketplace. People who complain about being too busy to sell...come on. Everyone has down time. I had a vendor before the crash (and sadly lost the money i paid for it when WR went down), but that was when there were still vendors available for peolpe. At that point it was fair. The way it is now, with them so spread out and none available for anyone to use, and more than a few being used as guild storage or tradeskill mules, it's a crap system.
I think the interaction with other players from selling will do the server good as well. I mean how many times have you looked for player made items on a vendor and saw some and went "Oh they have everything except the legs" or "Oh that potion is great, but I need _____" Well with the old /auc system you can see someone sellign their goods and actually ASK tem a question.
That's my thoughts anyway.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
purefyre said:No offense Wiz and staff. The vendor system shouldn't have even been used if it was set to fail due to the off ratio of players verse vendors available. Like I mentioned in the thread over the purging of vendors, it was weeks before anyone(Davan being the first) to enbrace the use of them. The individuals who used the vendors primarily for storage and not sales should've made mule character(s) keep an inventory. I still don't see why players would mainly meet elsewhere than NP to deal after the mentioned GM events in such and such zone. Oh well.
We didn't really intend to keep it the way it was, but I'm not going to start a long discussion on why vendors ended up like they are.
No offense Wiz and staff. The vendor system shouldn't have even been used if it was set to fail due to the off ratio of players verse vendors available. Like I mentioned in the thread over the purging of vendors, it was weeks before anyone(Davan being the first) to enbrace the use of them, including myself(an avid farmer). The individuals who used the vendors primarily for storage and not sales should've made mule character(s) keep an inventory. I still don't see why players would mainly meet elsewhere than NP to deal after the mentioned GM events in such and such zone. No doubt there's going to be a lot of auction spam and the bazaar board will be filled up regularly. I'd sugguest fixing the channels to alleviate that. Oh well.
Ok, if anything was going to make me believe the "Wiz is beyond time" bit, above would be it...
Wiz quotes a post 7 minutes before it is posted...
purefyre posted: 6:49 pm
Wiz posted 6:42 pm (and I already read the thread without Wiz's post there.
/apologizes for the side track...
Personally, I enjoyed the selling system of Anarchy Online. Had plenty of player /auction and I did a lot of business that way (auction was side specific and auction channel was only heard in and around cities) - so there were plenty of times I had to grid (port) to different cities to complete the sale. There were also player contolled cities where you could put player vendors for 24/7 selling (which I would relate to player vendors in different cities as in SoD). There was a Search Terminal in all cities that allowed you to search the entire database of player vendors and provided the zone and /loc for the vendor.
It isn't perfect but I thought it a nice system. But of course the current system (as prev stated) runs into the "not enough vendors to go arond". Personally, I do like the idea of a market zone but would like an alternative to selling wares (as I tend to play during off hours and not for extended periods of time). Even if that meant having to pay a tax on goods sold via vendor, higher upkeep for vendors, etc... Personally, I would use vendors more for buying than selling and even if prices were to increased, I would still buy things from player vendors (I have no problems earning money to buy a piece of gear from a vendor).
Wiz quotes a post 7 minutes before it is posted...
purefyre posted: 6:49 pm
Wiz posted 6:42 pm (and I already read the thread without Wiz's post there.
/apologizes for the side track...
Personally, I enjoyed the selling system of Anarchy Online. Had plenty of player /auction and I did a lot of business that way (auction was side specific and auction channel was only heard in and around cities) - so there were plenty of times I had to grid (port) to different cities to complete the sale. There were also player contolled cities where you could put player vendors for 24/7 selling (which I would relate to player vendors in different cities as in SoD). There was a Search Terminal in all cities that allowed you to search the entire database of player vendors and provided the zone and /loc for the vendor.
It isn't perfect but I thought it a nice system. But of course the current system (as prev stated) runs into the "not enough vendors to go arond". Personally, I do like the idea of a market zone but would like an alternative to selling wares (as I tend to play during off hours and not for extended periods of time). Even if that meant having to pay a tax on goods sold via vendor, higher upkeep for vendors, etc... Personally, I would use vendors more for buying than selling and even if prices were to increased, I would still buy things from player vendors (I have no problems earning money to buy a piece of gear from a vendor).
GuiardoTuneweaver
Staff Emeritus
luciferblack said:
Well, every time that's happened to me, I've just looked for the vendor owner and shot them a tell. I've always gotten a friendly response (even if the answer was no). Just because the vendors are automated doesn't make the sellers unavailable (except for folks who use mule characters to control the vendors, which seem to be few).