Inability to sell arrows

L

lynnettell

Dalayan Elder
While I actually like the archery revamp, to where it makes sense, the inability to sell *any* type of arrow combine back just makes zero sense to me. I can see selling at a loss, I'm used to that. But even skilling up to the 50's, I have to hope people want the low level quivers at a lost on listsold, or give them away, or just flat out destroy, and eat the money to skill up.

Yes, a casual ranger working fletching won't worry about it to supply arrows for themselves, which I think the intent was. However for someone who wants to advance it just because, not even being able to recoup ANY cost by reselling bundles, large bundles or even quivers once fletched back is not in line with any other tradeskill. Not to mention those rangers who are fletching their own, and honestly, I did 12 quivers of arrows at max of my fletching skill range, and it ate up about 1k of the cash (they're on Kerofritz). I was actually *happy* on fails, because no one wants those arrows except the low level rangers, who can't even afford to buy a quiver. I can't put a bundle on listsold, minimum is 1pp. Not worth it. Large bundle = doesn't have the PRODUCE tag, so no go there. Now you buy a quiver for 4pp, and... yeah. You are screwed making ANY money back skilling up.

I'm sure others will agree that even a platinum loss for less than components from vendor rather than breaking even is better than a destroy button, and probably why fletching is so abhorred.

EDIT TO ADD: When first fished, maps were not vendorable either. Now they are vendorable, yet do not appear on the vendor that you sold them to. If this kind of thing could be added would keep people from just buying skillups for the cheap.

This may have been an oversight. If it was to encourage rangers to fletch their own, well, I'm sorry, not everyone likes to click. But I honestly have no idea why absolutely no arrows (bundle, large bundle or quiver) produced can be sold to vendor.
 
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When Tao made fletching he subtracted the amount you'd get back from vendoring the arrows after making them from the cost of the supplies, so you already have gotten the money back anyway.
 
j883376 said:
When Tao made fletching he subtracted the amount you'd get back from vendoring the arrows after making them from the cost of the supplies, so you already have gotten the money back anyway.
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I don't get to know about this stuff until everyone else does, but I did get a chance to check that his excel code wasn't borked. It's solid, so I'm pretty sure this works out. He was exactingly thorough to be certain that net costs for skilling up would not go up.

The takeaway is that if you make any money from selling arrows to players (or quivers if you charge more than the empty quiver's cost), then you actually end up spending less net money working Fletching.

Edit: Tarutao has a serious spreadsheet problem. So do I, and most of my friends. Went to another friend's house for a get-together with like 20 people, and he had Excel open to his business' spreadsheets. 3 of us spent the next hour talking about spreadsheets, our favorite tricks with them, and showing each other our best spreadsheet work. After ruining the party with that talk, me and the friend that didn't live there went home and played games like Disgaea. Now I wish I could see Taru's spreadsheet, I think he was finally giving up on Lotus 1-2-3 at the time.

I have a spreadsheet problem. I'm gonna go play Microsoft Excel now.
 
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Considering when someone uses a quiver up, they can resell that quiver for the 4pp to the vendor (it goes back to the quiver state, as a container) I would think at least full quivers could be sold for the price of the quiver. I see the math, and it's close to the old per combine if you go on the 1000 arrow per quiver plat. I'd never question Tao's math.

So if you're a ranger fletching, you can reuse the same quiver over & over again to replenish your quiver that has the charges. Does not help those who just want to click them & not vendor.

I suppose it just makes no sense to me on WHY it's this way, even with the math. To get only rangers or those that use arrows to fletch? To say, hey, sell this quiver full of 1000 charges, and you're gonna pay 4pp for the quiver to make it, and the one who buys can use them, then make 4pp off your empty? While that's chump change if you're buying one of the 700pp quivers, it's a lot when your fletching is in the low numbers.

The takeaway is that if you make any money from selling arrows to players (or quivers if you charge more than the empty quiver's cost), then you actually end up spending less net money working Fletching.
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I guess part of my problem with it is that at low levels, you have to charge 1pp on listsold. Well, the large bundles don't have a charge. So you have a bundle, which would be 20 arrows, not worth 1pp. If large bundles had a charge of 100, then you could realistically sell large bundles on listsold for 1pp. *Yes, I know it only takes 10 bundles to make a large, 5 larges to make 1000, so technically 200, but just tossing an idea out.
 
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I've done fletching when it was first revamped, it was costly, no one bought much of anything (I ended up destroying everything until I could make resist arrows) and painful, I buy my arrows now because the whole process just isn't worth it.

With the server numbers being extremely low IMO all tradeskills should have items added to them that earn a decent profit (balanced with the time/effort involved) when sold to the vendor that has no value other then vendor trash (preferably vendor bought items to combind).

and incase my tradeskill experience is questioned.

Blacksmithing: 250
Brewing: 170
Fletching: 250
Mining: 250
Pottery: 80

2 other miners (both 250) 1 for deep metal and a fisher bot 250.
 
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This tradeskill to me is not in line with any other, and between two chars I'm max in smithing, jeweling, tailoring, brewing. 90 pottery because I cheat & use boots. Not to mention my miners & fishers.

While I understand why Tao's math is the way that it is, the fact you can't sell intermediate combines (the large bundles) makes no sense. Nor does the fact that at high levels, you have to carry what seems to be every freaking bane there is.

There's an 8+ 1, 2, 3, 4 on every type of arrow. Why can't there be a 250 combine which is flat out 10 damage just like a sword, dagger, etc.? Yeah, you'll lose that +2 from the bane, but my goodness, you don't expect casters to have + bane everything to do maximum DPS, why are rangers limited?

The last arrow with no bane I see is +7. So using those = taking away from major DPS if there was a midpoint of the high end arrows. While I can see not wanting +12 arrows, there should be a better ground for those who don't need all the bane stuff.
 
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the 1 arrow left can be fixed/patched and the +1 dmg still makes no difference, kero makes some really good points some of which were brought up in other threads.
 
I'm currently working on farming the plat to max my fletching on my level 39 ranger. I haven't really encountered anything too horrible as of yet, other than the number of combines is ramping up. I knew that the number of combines needed per level was going to be a lot going into it though. To be honest, more than making the arrows, at my level the issue is more using them. Archery at my level is pretty sub-par compared to my 1-handers. Even using 5/7 damage arrows, my melee outperforms my bow substantially. And the cost of said arrows far outweighs their use. That may be an itemization issue more than anything, and is probably off-topic for this thread.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't see too much of a problem with the way it is right now, 8 damage arrows are roughly 5 plat more per quiver than 7 damage arrows, and around half the cost of bane arrows. The only thing I'd really like is a cheaper alternative for fletchers themselves to make decent no-drop arrows, but not sell them.

Something that I think may be overlooked though is that fletching is a trade-skill that you can max without ever leaving town. You may want to run off and farm some components for bane arrows to save some room later on, but to my knowledge there is never a need to. I am rather worried with the new trade-skill window that will come with 2.5 or 3.0, with so little farming required there won't be much reason for someone to buy quivers anymore. Spend a couple days throwing 20k plat at it and you're done forever, without the disincentive of mass clicking.
 
lynnettell said:
There's an 8+ 1, 2, 3, 4 on every type of arrow. Why can't there be a 250 combine which is flat out 10 damage just like a sword, dagger, etc.? Yeah, you'll lose that +2 from the bane, but my goodness, you don't expect casters to have + bane everything to do maximum DPS, why are rangers limited?

The last arrow with no bane I see is +7. So using those = taking away from major DPS if there was a midpoint of the high end arrows. While I can see not wanting +12 arrows, there should be a better ground for those who don't need all the bane stuff.
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I think the argument is that +7 or +8 arrows are plenty fine for generic use, with the bane and elemental arrows meant mainly as a bonus for serious times AKA raids or 6mans or such. To be any kind of fair, that would mean rangers would be balanced on-tier around sub-optimal arrows, with the option to spend the increased money/farming on the ideal arrows for increased damage output.

To make an uncool comparison, it's similar to how most people won't constantly use flasks, potions, or expensive food in WoW unless in a serious raid, battleground, etc. If you're just in a group doing stuff, you're don't spring for the extra costs. Rangers just are special on SoD by getting this as such an option.

This might not be completely accurate, but I believe that's what it was from years back. I'm not taking a position for or against here in this post. I'm just putting it out there as an answer (even if not a good or acceptable one).
 
No one, not 1 main ranger uses non bane non resist arrows, and if they do they are bad people and should feel bad. your reasoning is invalid
 
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lynnettell said:
Well, if that's currently possible with bundles! If not, then why not code in large must have 20 charges to be combined.
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It's not currently possible.. So why not? The whole point is that they couldn't. If that changes (or has changed), then it's totally worth looking at again. Combines containing ingredients with charges was an impassable issue for a long time. If that's been dealt with, then I'm onboard. 5 bucks says Taru would be, too.

Gargate, read what I said again real quick. I told you that was just the argument given, not my personal opinion. We also already know you think that's invalid. I'm just giving you background information that you apparently never learned. If you wanna just dumbly run the same debate and start being insulting, you're not going to get anywhere. I'd much rather you get something done, so I'm trying to skip the part where you say all the things everyone else said and get the same responses back. Just saying "that's dumb" is a surefire way to not get anything done. They obviously don't think it's dumb. It seems pretty obvious to you why it's dumb, so I look forward to a painfully long and detailed new thread on the forums about why it is dumb and should be changed. That's where this issue has always died, so that's the step you'll need to take. I expect that I'll agree with most of what you have to say (if not all), so there's no need to get all upset with me, either. Let's just get to the point where stuff can get accomplished.

Edit: Oh yeah, no one else here could've seen this, but if you checked your reputation for these posts, you'd see I'd just given you some today for agreeing with several of your posts in a row. I'm not the opposition.
 
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The old gold standard was 10 damage arrows from Halial the Blind, but all of the talks I've had with developers pre-Ikisith about Rangers and Fletching seemed to come down to "7 damage arrows are pretty easy to get" without any assumption on the Halial arrows. Getting damage above 7 required killing in Tower of Tarhyl regularly, a rediculous recast cooldown from a magician, or a drop from a raid mob that was about a once a month drop if consistently killed the day he spawned.

If anything, the error here is that the ease of access to high damage arrows has gotten too high. This can be argued as detrimental to the Ranger class itself as it could cloud any dps balance testing. This certainly leaves open the argument of "the entire mechanic sucks take it out entirely and rebalance my class" from Rangers, but that argument is best made outside of this thread.

I am not espousing any change at all to this tradeskill at this time, but I am open to discussion on it in a appropriate channel (not this thread). The bane adjustments earlier this year required a number of adjustments to Fletching in order to accomodate the new bane system, and that does open the door for arguments that the bane system is no longer as appropriate for high end fletching as it was before these changes. Keeping in mind the massive amount of work that rewriting a tradeskill involves (see Admin-Slaar's recent comment about it being harder than writing a raid zone), I concurrently welcome the opening of a discussion regarding a re-re-rewrite of the tradeskill and require that, to be given credence, you be willing to make the massive time commitment to assist in the entire design process.

That whole off-topic thing said, I should put in my official viewpoint on the matter of selling arrows. Under the current system, you've already made back the resell value of the arrows even if you destroy them. This is an intentional ingredient price decrease meant as an encouragement for players working through the 0-180 skill range to sell arrows/quivers at low prices or give them away to other players without incurring any opportunity loss from vendor sale. This allows for market variables to naturally determine the value of the arrows, give them a purpose beyond making just to destroy while you raise your skill, lower the amount of clicking involved (also part of the reason arrows don't have groove nock ingredients), and to be of use to new characters. If they were to be made sellable, the cost of the ingredients would be increased to compensate the difference, and there'd be no upside to the increased clicking that would result. This aspect of the current Fletching system was designed to be pure upside without any downside to offset it.
 
heh yeah mostly was just amusing myself, a lot of these things have been laid out in other threads and very detailed just nothing ever changed other then resist arrows getting put back in.

which btw was very much appreciated.

Personally though I haven't seen a market for anything short of superb arrows (bane/resist) and even then the 3 or 4 players that sell them keep it pretty well stocked, its yet another case of tradeskills not having a lot of reward for the time. I wouldnt mind seeing a vendor trash item that turns a profit even if its minor.
 
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