high end wizards

[Manguadi]

I think there is a problem with high end wizard dps. I'll use tyrone as an example.

Normally equipped, tyrone has about 8200 mana and 20 ft. JB gives him 450 more, plus about 1k from harvests. Add in the 30 spell FT and on a 10 minute fight he has a total of 12650 or so mana to spend. I understand that most specializations modify their stat by about 10%. With mana con 7 he gets about a 17%, and with the AAs, let's call it a clean 20% reduction to mana cost.

Archaic: moon comet costs 570 / 20% = 456. 12650 / 456 = 27.7 casts.
His typical nuke is around 5k when fully raid buffed. 5k * 27 = 135,000 damage not counting any crits.

Over a 10 minute fight, 135,000 damage is 225 dps. Chain nuking, it would take him a little more than 3 minutes to run completely oom. The rest of the time he's going to spend concussioning (which will cost him at least 1 or 2 full moon comets by the end of the fight) and 5 mana nuking. Let's give him a generous 6 minutes of pure 5 mana nuking. With CSI 7, he'll get one nuke about every 9 seconds, for a total of 40ish 5 mana nukes. I don't know what his typical 5 mana nuke does, but since the base is 1/7th of moon comet, i'll assume that his 5 mana nuke does about 714 damage. Over 40 nukes, he will get 28571 damage non-crit, non-resist. Non-crit, chain casting moon comet with 0 resists he's looking at about 625 burst dps, but let's not forget he is just reallocating where his 135k damage is done.

The grand total dps on a 10 minute fight is 272. I have no idea what his crit rate is or how ultimates and primals would calculate in to this dps, but this whole scenario assumes 0 resists, which seems highly unlikely. In any case, it's doubtful he'll do more than 350 to 400 dps on a 10 minute fight (and most are this long or longer at his tier).

That's less than my monk (without gog). It falls well below Wiz's vision of highest burst and high sustained damage. This seems really bad.

edit: Dug up some old parses. His average damage on moon comet is about 7500, which works out to be about 380dps on a 10 minute fight.

 

[Maethorr]

actually its fits perfectly, a high end rogue/ranger is doing about 400-500+ish dps. So they definitely fall in the line of doing high sustained dps.
as far as burst dps goes they do about right as most of their burst dps comes from the ultimate and primal nukes and during caster curse where he can get be sure to get crits on rains and 2 moon comets if timed right.

Also most boss fights do not take over 5 min that is why ft is considered 50 mana which almost doubles your dps calculations.

 

[Noktar]

lol your calc is way off but even using your calculation they can do burst damage of over 1000 dps wich can be counted as extreemly high


we have parses of wizards doing around 500 dps without archiac

 

[Manguadi]

Also most boss fights do not take over 5 min that is why ft is considered 50 mana which almost doubles your dps calculations.

I wish this stayed true.

lol your calc is way off but even using your calculation they can do burst damage of over 1000 dps wich can be counted as extreemly high

I don't know why my calc is way off, or why you'd then use my way off calc, but if the 7500 damage per nuke average is consistent then we're looking at closer to 940 burst dps with no resists.


I probably shouldn't have posted this at all. In ToT, wizards are still powerful. On an average raid I parse, wizards do about as much total damage as an equivalently tomed beastlord not counting his pet. I think their burst dps is ok, but other than that they are piss-poor after tot.

 

[Maethorr]

well really the only place after tot is pretty much sanctum/thaz himself which you haven't even seen all the loot from though.
There could be an 8% focus or a di8 item in sanctum that would bring the wizzy back up to where they belong in that tier in the first place, you don't know.

And in iskith they are probably planning on using +elemental damage and new spells to help the balance things out.

The thing is a wizzy should not ever be beating a rogue/ranger/monk on any fight over 6 min really so being even with a beastlord is about what you should be on a 10 min endurance fight, your specialty it the fights that require maximum on shorter fights(under 6 min). Now they might have made it so that fights start lasting longer in sanctum which may be the problem not really the dps of wizzys.

as a side not are you gms planning on increasing the caps on attack and such with iskith as right now pretty much at tot all the melee hit a wall in which they can not really increase their dps my a large amount as they cap their worn attack, crit strike, ect.

 

[Noktar]

So basicly your talking about thazeran and inner sanctum? And how would that change anything if you dont take into account resists in your calculation

 

[Nodnal]

No offense to Tyrone, he is a good friend of mine, but he always parses low. If you were to show a ton of old parses of several wizards, then I would be more inclined to think there is a problem. I know Kade parsed over 600 damage on some fights. As you and I know, Mang, some higher end fights aren't suited for wizards for different reasons. However, wizards can still burn things down faster than any other class at the same tier.

I would like to see tons of parses on different mobs too, to see how their DPS scales between encounters. Also, ultimates and primals over a long period of parses would help smooth out their DPS average.

Do wizards lose a little steam over a long fight? Sure, but they are not designed to be sustained DPS. If that gets changed, then they will be both the best burst DPS and a very good sustained DPS.

 

[Malluas]

actually its fits perfectly, a high end rogue/ranger is doing about 400-500+ish dps. So they definitely fall in the line of doing high sustained dps.
as far as burst dps goes they do about right as most of their burst dps comes from the ultimate and primal nukes and during caster curse where he can get be sure to get crits on rains and 2 moon comets if timed right.

Also most boss fights do not take over 5 min that is why ft is considered 50 mana which almost doubles your dps calculations.

which raid mobs are you fighting? i wanna fight them!

 

[robopirateninja]

No offense to Tyrone, he is a good friend of mine, but he always parses low. If you were to show a ton of old parses of several wizards, then I would be more inclined to think there is a problem. I know Kade parsed over 600 damage on some fights. As you and I know, Mang, some higher end fights aren't suited for wizards for different reasons. However, wizards can still burn things down faster than any other class at the same tier.

Even if I'm a poopyballs wizard Mang's post is using my character's stats and perfect performance math to make his point, so it's not super relevant. Thanks for your love though, jerk. I don't like the amount of fudging involved in ignoring both critical hits and resists though; on sanctum fights I see a lot of partial resists, but I crit/ult/primal a fair amount as well. Also keep in mind that I have 22% increased damage from tomes, which a lot of the other dpsers that are outparsing me don't have.

well really the only place after tot is pretty much sanctum/thaz himself which you haven't even seen all the loot from though.
There could be an 8% focus or a di8 item in sanctum that would bring the wizzy back up to where they belong in that tier in the first place, you don't know.

This is an interesting point I hadn't even considered, unfortunately so far we have only seen more rank 7 focus effects from Thazeran and Inner Sanctum. The hardest encounter we've killed to date is dropping at least two rank 7 focuses.

And in iskith they are probably planning on using +elemental damage and new spells to help the balance things out.

I need to read/experience the new elemental damage items, but hopefully they will allow wizards to trade more dps for mana when selecting gear. The new wizard nuke looks interesting but not a solution to this problem because last I checked unless I get 8k more mana in Ikisith I can cast about 5 of them before running oom.

The thing is a wizzy should not ever be beating a rogue/ranger/monk on any fight over 6 min really so being even with a beastlord is about what you should be on a 10 min endurance fight, your specialty it the fights that require maximum on shorter fights(under 6 min). Now they might have made it so that fights start lasting longer in sanctum which may be the problem not really the dps of wizzys.

Yes and no. On a long enough fight, rogues and monks should beat a wizard's DPS. I don't think 5 minutes should be the cutoff there. Even the damn trash pulls in sanctum are long as fuck, and I can't even think of the last time we killed a real mob in less than 5 minutes. Each of the Thaz fights can be 30+ minutes, each trash pull in Sanctum can be as long as 20 minutes.

as a side not are you gms planning on increasing the caps on attack and such with iskith as right now pretty much at tot all the melee hit a wall in which they can not really increase their dps my a large amount as they cap their worn attack, crit strike, ect.

fomelo otus, they seem to have an idea about over-cap stats with some new items.


The way the game changes in tier 9+ makes wizard's burst dps less awesome because when they finish burst dpsing even a trash mob still has a ton of hp left. I'll wait to make any suggestions until after I see where things end up after the new elemental damage itemization and the new ikisith spells.

 

[vistachiri]

Mages don't fare much better tbh sustained wise at the tier we're at. His dps over the fight doesn't count in mimics or 5m nukes, so its reasonable to expect he did something during the other 7min of the fight, with pet and no resists, and a much lower critrate, with maxtomes I can expect around 396 (null buffs that I can't do myself, null monster summoning (as a good portion of high end fights negate it's usage entirely). I'd guesstimate not really doing the math 5m nukes over the course of the 7minutes of the fight after mana is blown chained counting in the fizzle graybar time (as a 2.5) would be close to 100dps at max tomes with all the foci bells and whistles counted in (again, no resists, no crits, looking at frost howl). Discounting casting speed also. (Yes I know these sentences suck badly, I'm tired as hell, will fix later)

Tbh that puts them above mages in terms of sustained on long fights with any sort of ae. Gap gets even bigger when you consider the crit rate difference (wiz innate 10% + dd's being naturally much much higher in critrate).

Though tbh one should count rods for both too, but it doesn't change things all that much, wiz gets a free mooncomet, mage gets a free rain basically if we toss those in.

 

[Drotic]

I think there is a problem with high end wizard dps.

That's less than my monk (without gog). It falls well below Wiz's vision of highest burst and high sustained damage. This seems really bad.

edit: Dug up some old parses. His average damage on moon comet is about 7500, which works out to be about 380dps on a 10 minute fight.

I am sorry, but please explain to me how is it a problem that wizards maybe (you attach no parses on any of the fights and show some theoretical math) doing less damage in a whole fight then rogues/rangers in ONE zone + Thazerian. Are reflecting mobs broken too then using this logic?

Ask rogues how much dps are they doing on mobs that do high dmg and whirlwind?

 

[Nwaij]

I am sorry, but please explain to me how is it a problem that wizards maybe (you attach no parses on any of the fights and show some theoretical math) doing less damage in a whole fight then rogues/rangers in ONE zone + Thazerian. Are reflecting mobs broken too then using this logic?

Ask rogues how much dps are they doing on mobs that do high dmg and whirlwind?

Reflecting mobs are for casters what WW mobs are for melees - it turns their DPS into poop.

And while one could say its "just one zone", as of now, there is only this one zone on this tier of raiding. And I starts even in the tier before (Thazeran).

Counter question: Is there any tier of raiding, or atleast a significant part of a tier, where ROG/RNG/MNK damage is singificantly below then what it was in the previous tier?

EDIT: the "one zone" argumant is kinda void anyways, ask Wizards and Mages about their DPS in PoFrost vs. ToT. Zones where every single mob is basically immune against your best spell are out there yet.

 

[Waldoff]

Not going to put my two cents in quite yet at the main issue BUT I want to interject-

Not all classes will always be equally good throughout all tiers. If tier 9 and 10 lean towards long fights and necromancer ownage it in no way means that is a permanent trend for the future.

Dont use that assumption in your analysis.

 

[Eustace]

Counter question: Is there any tier of raiding, or atleast a significant part of a tier, where ROG/RNG/MNK damage is singificantly below then what it was in the previous tier?
.

Yes Nwaij, there is. Now it may just be my CR, but there are several fights in PoFrost that reduce my dps to the point of me literally standing there for 2 minute stretches waiting for the range button to repop. However, aside from melee immunity/massive slows, ranger (assuming the ranger is being mained and not botted using afk-attack) dps remains fairly consistent.

Edit - Going to toss a couple other things in here. Ranger dps on extremely long fights will also take a dive due to running out of endurance on /s 8. The difference between offensive stance and aimed stance is +/- 150 dps for me due to a large amount of misses, lowered damage on range hits from not being in aimed stance, etc.

Classes can't be expected to perform equally well on all encounters. Sometimes one class is going to really shine, and other times they're going to really suck. If it's only one area or one encounter that's really crapping out on a certain class, then it's probably not due to that class sucking but more likely due to the way the encounter itself functions. I honestly wouldn't expect any caster dps to keep up 700-900 during a 30 minute fight regardless of what class they were and how much of a bonus they received. Sometimes it's better to aim for 300-400 sustained dps than doing 1200dps in bursts.

 

[Manguadi]

The reason I bring this up now, and I tend to agree with pretty much everyone that disagrees with me in that one zone isn't enough to say OMG WIZARDS, is that the only real way to use all the mana high-end healers have is to lengthen fights dramatically. If Ikisith encounters, like very high-end encounters, follow this pattern, then it's a problem that should be considered now, if not necessarily addressed now.

Ten minutes is a relatively quick fight in my parses, and I don't know what PoFrost fights take, but it feels like the duration of fights almost doubles thereafter. If you say that wizard dps is fine where it is based on fights of half duration, then you're thinking of wizards that are essentially twice as valuable as ours.

 

[Eustace]

Then what you might want to suggest Manguadi is a new sort of harvest spell or ability for wizards - but who knows, there might be a tome in Iksith that gives wizards the ability clockwork iconoclasts have, to absorb a spell and regenerate mana at tremendous speed!

 

[Cinn]

I just want to throw in my 2 cents about WW mobs for melees.

Mainly for monks.

And that's that they don't really effect us in the negative way that wizards suffer from counterspell.

with a little planning such as putting yourself in the main tanks group, or a group with a paladin, coupled with /s 15 and mend, we can stay in /most/ WW fights without too much of a problem.

There is no combination of planning, preparation or playing a wizard can do to reduce counterspells.

the balance of this only really comes into play when the WW damage is something obscene and we're forced to joust.

 

[Furrygamer]

Really counterspell is not as awful if you know the tricks. You use more mana on counterspell mobs but they are not putrid. Actually you can use less mana on them too if you are going for constant casting.

 

[Mythryn]

There is no combination of planning, preparation or playing a wizard can do to reduce counterspells.

Thats not quite true, it just takes another person, and a decent understanding of how counterspells and reflects work.

 

[panthernoswar]

I am sorry, but please explain to me how is it a problem that wizards maybe (you attach no parses on any of the fights and show some theoretical math) doing less damage in a whole fight then rogues/rangers in ONE zone + Thazerian. Are reflecting mobs broken too then using this logic?

Ask rogues how much dps are they doing on mobs that do high dmg and whirlwind?

Yes, reflecting mobs have always been broken, half the time it reflects the spells, 40% of the time it just eats the spell, doesn't reflect and doesn't land, and you land about 10%