Give me DPS over tanking? Sure! But where is my agro?

Zaos

Zaos

Dalayan Adventurer
While I enjoy a bit more dps (mostly on undead) I must say that this 25 percent reduction to blind is.... enormous. It seems more like blind does 25 percent of its previous agro than it does 25 percent less. Blind doesn't even generate enough agro to keep mobs from breaking towards casters upon spell cast... let alone spell land. I can handle being less of a tank for more dps but how does killing my ability to draw agro fit into the paladin lore? We aren't the agro champions but its been a losing battle ever since the patch trying to keep agro unless we are fighting but a single mob. I think the agro on blind could be reevaluated. Thanks.
 
Eh, I don't know, but from what I saw last night in NDHK, paladin's still do not have much problems holding agro - atleast, Balthor didn't.
 
Balth is using stuns now and not even attempting blinds (I believe), and it shows. Agro on a paladin is definately ping-ponging alot more than previous...not saying this isn't intended or whatever but its easy to tell.
 
Appreciate it Wiz. Single target is not bad (using divine stun and stuff) but for more than 1 target its hard to keep mobs on me if anyone is doing anything that even looks uncool to mobs.
 
90% of the time during raids the only reason paladins tank is because of their insane AE aggro abilities.
 
So, forgive me if I'm not understanding things correctly here, but i understood that the decrease in aggro abilities was to offset the paladins new ability to increase overall group DPS as well as having superior DPS to other tanks, and group heals.
Paladins ability to absorb damage hasn't been changed, unless I missed reading that part in the paladin update stuff.
So, now we want to give paladins back their aggro abilities while keeping these damage increases?
I'm trying to figure out what the trade-off for the extra DPS would be were Paladins aggro abilities reinstated...
 
Paladins had their best and only ability to tank better than say a cleric with ac augs when we lost our guarding blade stance. That was the paladin tank ability. This was traded for dps which is cool. We dont have uber single target agro on most raid mobs because our only spell that lands with even remote consistency is an AA that I put like 20 points into. We therefore have a tool (like our ability to group heal) which is used to pull agro on multiple mobs. Useful in certain situations. This is a loss to both exp groups and raids if the agro from this spell has been overly reduced.

As far as sk tanking is concerned as myself and others posted.. I think its legit to have the sk tanking stance upped a bit to further balance this situation but I don't see how a great change in our ability to agro at the level it has been at really fits into the class distinctions.
 
Whats the difference between SK and Paladin tanking? The staple of SK tanking as far as styles go is the defensive style, which Paladins obviously have, so where is the distinction made? We use all the same equipment and as far as I know we have the same hit point rolls, SK's have better single mob agro and Paladins have better AE agro. Besides that as far as exp groups are concerned Paladins at this point in time seem to be far more valuable (from my point of view at least).

Why would I say that? Well lets see, we both use the same equipment as I said, we both get the same amount of hit points, Paladins get the same style that SK's are using 90% of the time during tanking in experience situations at least. Now lets look at the differences, Paladins do better dps and increase overall group dps, get group heals for any mishaps, can, at the very least, hold agro on single mobs and can snap agro any adds that the group happens to encounter. SK's get better single mob agro allowing any dps in the group to unload without fear of repercussions. So where is the tradeoff here? Im hoping that Im just missing something but I honestly cant see what it is.
 
I'm not talking about some blanket reversion, I'm going to see if it was lowered too much or not.
 
I did a little test.. Edit: This log is from Zaos screen not Maimai

[Fri Jun 23 15:09:33 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:35 2006] A Halfling Defender swoons in raptured bliss.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:38 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:42 2006] A Halfling Defender slows down.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:44 2006] You taunt a Halfling Defender to ignore others and attack you!
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:44 2006] You begin casting Blinding Light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:46 2006] A Halfling Defender is blinded by a flash of light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:49 2006] You begin casting Wave of Light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:50 2006] A Halfling Defender is blinded by a wave of light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:51 2006] You taunt a Halfling Defender to ignore others and attack you!
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:53 2006] You begin casting Blinding Light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:53 2006] Auto attack is on.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:55 2006] A Halfling Defender is blinded by a flash of light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:55 2006] a Halfling Defender was awakened by Zaos.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:55 2006] A Halfling Defender pierces YOU for 19 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 23 15:09:58 2006] You taunt a Halfling Defender to ignore others and attack you!
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:06 2006] You taunt a Halfling Defender to ignore others and attack you!
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:09 2006] You begin casting Blinding Light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:10 2006] A Halfling Defender is blinded by a flash of light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:11 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:16 2006] A Halfling Defender's mind is clouded by chaotic imagery.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:16 2006] You begin casting Wave of Light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:18 2006] A Halfling Defender is blinded by a wave of light.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:21 2006] You taunt a Halfling Defender to ignore others and attack you!
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:25 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:27 2006] A Halfling Defender swoons in raptured bliss.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:27 2006] a Halfling Defender was awakened by Zaos.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:28 2006] A Halfling Defender pierces YOU for 41 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:30 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:33 2006] A Halfling Defender swoons in raptured bliss.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:34 2006] A Halfling Defender pierces YOU for 92 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:34 2006] a Halfling Defender was awakened by Zaos.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:37 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:39 2006] A Halfling Defender swoons in raptured bliss.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:44 2006] a Halfling Defender was awakened by Zaos.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:44 2006] A Halfling Defender pierces YOU for 36 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:46 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:48 2006] A Halfling Defender swoons in raptured bliss.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:48 2006] a Halfling Defender was awakened by Zaos.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:48 2006] A Halfling Defender pierces YOU for 61 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:55 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:57 2006] A Halfling Defender swoons in raptured bliss.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:58 2006] a Halfling Defender was awakened by Zaos.
[Fri Jun 23 15:10:58 2006] A Halfling Defender pierces YOU for 45 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 23 15:11:02 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:11:04 2006] A Halfling Defender swoons in raptured bliss.
[Fri Jun 23 15:11:05 2006] a Halfling Defender was awakened by Zaos.
[Fri Jun 23 15:11:08 2006] A Halfling Defender pierces YOU for 48 points of damage.
[Fri Jun 23 15:11:09 2006] Maimai begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jun 23 15:11:12 2006] A Halfling Defender has been mesmerized.
[Fri Jun 23 15:11:12 2006] a Halfling Defender was awakened by Zaos.
[Fri Jun 23 15:11:13 2006] You cannot see your target.
Click to expand...

After agro was locked it took 7 pure melee mez breaks with no taunting to lose agro.

I also tested with Muurian (a wizard) on a higher level mob, Muur did concussionx3 then chain cast Relaks Rapid Rending and I didnt lose agro, using a combination of Wave of light and Blinding Light (they overwrite eachother so you don't have to wait for one to wear off) and the occasional divine stun. This was in /s 3 aswell with only buffs being JB and empower.

It is a little bit mana intensive but that was versus extreme agro stealing (ie what i'd expect from a raid), I don't think an xp group would need as much work, also Zaos missed the level 55 Blinding Light spell before this post I just went and bought it for him :)
 
lol sorry let me clear things up, that log is from Zaos perspective not mine :p It showed that blind agro is still quite viable.
 
One request I do have however to balance the changes is to have mobs that are blinded shift to the lower level of AI (so they don't run to interrupt spells with melee etc.) because they're blind and obviously less intelligent, this would make Wave of Light a better situational spell versus humanoids etc. :)
 
Nurgock the difference in paladin and sk tanking is that its way easier to hold agro on high resistant named encounters as a SK than it is for a PAL. Without agro there IS NO tanking. You will see when you when you get there. Paladins source of agro is stuns and blinds and many of these named Im talking about are nearly totally resistant to those spells (if not totally). That leaves the paladin tank with Divine Stun (an AA stun that we have to put like 15 to 20 points into) as a source of taunt which also, evenly while being highly unresistable, still gets resisted constantly. That, my friend, is the difference between paladin and sk tanking.

As a side note I will, once again, mention that the SK tanking stance should obviously be a little better as Volkov suggested in a recent post. Paladins no longer have a worthwhile tanking stance.
 
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