Farming and the Expansions

[vistachiri]

And vistachiri, I was not saying people need to buy gear to progress, otherwise why would I suggest that any loot off something considered a raid mob be made no drop? While maybe I do not know everything there is to know about the game I know that a lot of entry level mobs are perma camped by far overgeared players.

I am saying that no, they are not. As I do know most things about the game right now, including actually who is camping what, and when with minimal effort (not a difficult thing to figure out, you look, and check, and recheck, eventually said mob falls into your lap) I can pretty much tell you that you're wrong about everything being permacamped by people of the say 8-10 tiers. Most have actually fallen out of the sniping game, as in many cases it's more profitable to just ram through a dungeon and hit numerous targets than to run around and kill the very few snipable timered mobs. I've always preferred the ph mob route anyways. I've also pointed out that the entry level mobs that are droppable, and are camped, are in many cases a waste as far as time investment for even an entry level raid (see mielech, actually many times I've been in mielc he was up, and I neglected to go and kill him simply because it was far), or a waste as there are easier ways to skin a cat so to speak (taratzu's gear for example, who is one of the few that is permadown with droppable loot, though I would not consider him a raidmob per se). Quest drop mobs are a different matter entirely (the big 3 of freeport for example, who are not needed, but very helpful towards silver crown faction, and incidentally aren't permacamped).

Many mobs that you can gain decent upgrades pre-acquiring nodrop stuff should one take the intitiative to do them are not timered. They are ph spawned. Thus any argument about them being permacamped, is generally invalid, which I pointed out even earlier.

Also, your rebuttal makes little sense. Suggesting a mobs gear needs to be made nodrop in order for lower tiered players to get a shot at getting it (which is already possible provided they actually mobilize a force, which at a lower tier I'd done many many many times, for instance when plaguefang had droppable loot) needs some type of reasoning behind it. The only apparent reason being to make it easier to break into raiding, which you mentioned. Which I pointed out is false, as it is just as easy to break in off of nodrops as it is with loot from the particular mobs you are speaking of.

 

[Manguadi]

In general, leveling systems in an mmo are bad. Content should be trivialized by pull instead of push, meaning that you are inclined to go to a new, better zone rather than forced to leave.

One of SoD's defining qualities is that at level 65, the game ceases to be level based. As a result, all new content actually lengthens the game, whereas in a level-based mmo old content is made obsolete. Levels in a commercial mmo force new content to be significantly easier than the old, hardest content in order for casual players to continue to advance. A non-level based advancement system still allows casual players to advance while they would still benefit from raiding, should they ever choose to. The last advantage that I can think of in this system is that a casual player does not need to be at the end of advancement in order to start raiding or getting better gear, whereas in a game like WoW you have to be level 80.

 

[terr281]

In general, leveling systems in an mmo are bad. Content should be trivialized by pull instead of push, meaning that you are inclined to go to a new, better zone rather than forced to leave.

One of SoD's defining qualities is that at level 65, the game ceases to be level based. As a result, all new content actually lengthens the game, whereas in a level-based mmo old content is made obsolete. Levels in a commercial mmo force new content to be significantly easier than the old, hardest content in order for casual players to continue to advance. A non-level based advancement system still allows casual players to advance while they would still benefit from raiding, should they ever choose to. The last advantage that I can think of in this system is that a casual player does not need to be at the end of advancement in order to start raiding or getting better gear, whereas in a game like WoW you have to be level 80.

Your first statement on pull vs. push is exactly correct.

Thoughts on second statement:

While it is true that at level 65 SoD ceases to be level based, what is the difference in a level and "required number of AAs/tomes/relic spells" as a prerequisite to do certain content?

In a commerical MMO, the level cap is raised and/or more difficult raiding zones are added in order to do exactly as you describe. (push vs. pull) This does indeed have the effect of making the old "hardest" content obsolete for the playerbase at that step in xp'ing/raiding. However, this content does not become obsolete for the casual player, if he can join/be lucky enough to join a guild/party that raids that content. (Unless, in an example from Live, the content is removed and changed to higher level content for higher level players.)

In SoD, new content also lengthens the game. This isn't done via adding a new "level requirement," but other requirements are added in order for people to participate in most cases. (This where the AA minimums, tomes, and relic spells are taken into account.)

It is NOT the fault of either of these models, however, that the casual player must always be playing "catch-up" to be able to do what others have already done. Game developers must balance content to the abilities of the majority that will be participating in the content. Further, more time played by a player will equate to more time availabe to advance. (Gamer with little time...casual... to the gamer with more time.... non-casual.)

Many encounters in SoD cannot be done by level 65s without X gear/AAs/tomes that gives them X hp, mana, resists and dmg output, including the use of X spells (archaic/relic).

This is NOT directed towards you as an individual, but your statement from "Levels in a commerical mmo....in a game like WoW you have to be level 80" is not completely true.

In Live, you didn't have to be max level to raid the newest content. (If you did, then raiding would be impossible until after more level grinding PRIOR to going and raiding the new expansion's content.) Many guilds would also carry "pre max level" recruits on their raids during probationary periods. This wouldn't be possible if this was true.

In DAoC, you didn't have to be level 50 before you began raiding dragons if a spot was open.

Other examples exist, but I hope you see the point.

Further, new content is not necessarily easier to allow new players to advance. (I remember GoD content being released in Live. Some PoP raiding guilds had difficulty raiding some of the "easy" content in that expansion.) Every MMO has other examples of this.

Lastly, on the specific topic of casual player advancement without raiding. (One of the topics of this post.)

Many mobs in SoD may indeed be PH type mobs. Further, by vistachiri's statement, many "high tier equipment players" may leave "droppable" loot mobs in place on the server due to "the reward not being worth the effort."

But, the casual player, by the definition of being casual, usually has less than 20 hours a week to play a game. Further, those hours are spread across many play sessions.

Once a casual player in SoD hits level 65 (a task in itself with many groups not wanting Dalaya's Beginners/non-guilded characters in their groups), they face the obstacle of "what now?"

1. I will never get Relic spells.
2. I will probably never get Archaic spells.
3. I will probably not be able to complete many of the level 65 quests, because of setup time of a PUG every play session to go to zones that aren't "the best" for money/xp to receive many "quest drop items" that will always have to be /randomed.
4. I can continue to xp in "the best" zones to buy equipment from listsold/auction because groups are easily found for this.
5. I can continue to xp in "the best" zones to get AAs/tomes to improve myself. (But, I cannot get the archaic/relic spells this way.)

In conclusion, the OP's suggestion of all "boss loot" being made "no drop" would help solve one problem, but create many others in its place. (This is just like other issues I have written long posts about before.)

And, I'll repeat, I agree with Manguadi that players should be motivated based upon "pull instead of push." However, the reasoning, in my opinion, is flawed based on real data. Further, no matter how much balancing is done to help the person with less (time, high tiered friends, a high tiered raiding guild, etc., the casual player will always be left at a significant disadvantage...NEVER being able to acquire certain things. Thus is game life, just like real life.

However, if those unacquired things are required for said person to experience a good part of the game, then something is wrong with the balance. (Hence, the SoD playerbase shouldn't consider levels 1-64 as a tutorial, shouldn't "demand" <and, I know a few people already that have quit SoD over this...groups demanding the best haste, best focus, raego, etc.> the best spells be cast on them in place of commonly available ones, etc.) But, again, that is the nature of the game and life.

 

[Manguadi]

In a commerical MMO, the level cap is raised and/or more difficult raiding zones are added in order to do exactly as you describe. (push vs. pull) This does indeed have the effect of making the old "hardest" content obsolete for the playerbase at that step in xp'ing/raiding. However, this content does not become obsolete for the casual player, if he can join/be lucky enough to join a guild/party that raids that content. (Unless, in an example from Live, the content is removed and changed to higher level content for higher level players.)

In SoD, new content also lengthens the game. This isn't done via adding a new "level requirement," but other requirements are added in order for people to participate in most cases. (This where the AA minimums, tomes, and relic spells are taken into account.)

If you continue to play at the old level cap and you find an entire guild that didn't buy the new expansion, then yes, the old content does not become trivialized.

However, this is usually not the case. What happens is that the new casual/leveling content begins to drop loot that is superior to the raiding drops from the previous content. The reason for this is twofold: you need better gear to kill harder hitting mobs and it would be really boring for the raiding characters if the loot they got in the previous expansion wasn't upgraded for 5 or 10 levels. As a result, even for casual players the content becomes grossly outdated.

The difference between the way sod adds new requirements and a level requirement is fairly large. For example, levels are a stat in mmos. This means that mobs resist you more, get hit for less damage, and hit you harder if you aren't at the level cap. This change happens in tiers at each level. In a skill-based/aa/tome system the change is far more gradual and tolerant of differences between characters. To make matters worse, most games require levels to even use equipment, spells, or aas, making levels a far more strict requirement than anything else.

I think I misused the term "lengthen" in my previous post. What I really meant was expand. When a new raid zone is added in sod with its higher tome and AA and gear requirements, you are still able to visit any other level 65 zone and receive the same benefit you did when it was the most challenging content for you. The game doesn't just get longer, the whole scope changes.

My point is essentially this: if the level cap in SoD was changed to level 70, casual pick-up groups would be able to xp in thazeran's tower.

 

[rioisk]

hmm

So farming low level areas when there is a 6 man group of appropriate level characters XPing and trying to gear up doesn't count in the new decency policy?

The Decency Policies:

1) Using higher level characters than the area is designed for to monopolize an unreasonable amount of mobs for the size of your group when there are others looking to hunt in the same area (for instance, a powerlevelling player pulling every mob in an area when there is also a group hunting there, or a player clearing every single mob in BB for faction while people are trying to EXP there)

2) Try to show general courtesy to players when hunting in the same zone. Excessive eapfrogging, pulling a named after they kill its placeholder multiple times etc are all fun and games until it's done to you, and it promotes an infected atmosphere between players. In short, try not to be a jerk.


I REALLY hate policies that use such excessively general terms to define rules.

"Pulling a named after they kill its placeholder multiple times".
So if an appropriately leveled group is killing in the general area is it okay for a level 65 300 AA raid-geared toon to waltz in and kill a named that is a few rooms over from the group because "the group wasn't on top of the spawn" or "the group was mid-battle and didn't reach the mob the second it spawns." What if the group was killing the PH multiple times? The decency rule sounds good in spirit, but I feel the greedy-mindset of a farmer would get off far too easily with the "Oh I didn't know" plead after they kill the named and walk away with an item the group tried to get after a few hours of killing PH. Try to make the case for "competition" but I just don't see why there is a rule like this unless there is a definite way to prove cases and enforce it.

"General Courtesy to players".
Is it not general courtesy to players to allow them to get gear appropriate for their level? I'm not being a care-bear here saying high levels should freely give to lower levels because that isn't general courtesy in context of this game. Believe it or not there are players willing to work for their gear but it's really discouraging when you must compete with 65's to reach named. I don't want to call out names but it's not uncommon for me to notice the same people logging in for five minutes, checking named/killing PHs, and logging out (probably to another character camped in another farm zone).


"Using higher level characters than the area is designed for to monopolize an unreasonable amount of mobs for the size of your group".

Is this for XP/powerleveling only? If it is why is that not specified? Why isn't monopolizing named bad or part of the decency rules? Again, why should a lower level group crawl around a dungeon killing non-named mobs and not be able to kill named because a 65 goes around killing all the named to farm. I'm sure this isn't really a serious problem for most people most of the time but what about the times this situation does arise? I'm sure most people would be reasonable if you /tell them but you can't expect that all the time from people--which is partly why this decency policy is in place in the first place.



For clarification I don't think the current state of farming is altogether bad. I think the policies surrounding farming could use some sand paper to smooth out some issues. Other then that, I really think people should be more positive and constructive in this. Remember-- It's far easier to be a critic then to suggest ideas of your own.

 

[Tyvec-a-tron]

I think the policies surrounding farming could use some sand paper to smooth out some issues.

These policies are intentionally vague- don't be a tool and go about your business not causing trouble for other people. A strict code of conduct would not only be very difficult to craft and enforce, it would be particularly easy for someone to skirt the letter of the law because there would inevitably be a variety of holes in any policy with the scope of what you're suggesting.