Encounter difficulty vs reward

Draeos

Dalayan Elder
Now hear me out before you assume i'm trying to just do a free loot grab here or something, we can kill all of the encounters i am going to list without much issue, but within that lies the real issue.

Lets start with Curator
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Curator_Niniliti

I don't want to reveal alot of the strat here on the boards because where is the fun in that, but what i would like to do is talk about how ridiculous the gear check is for this mob vs the loot it drops. Here's a parse of our last kill.


Combined: Curator Niniliti on 3/3/2013 in 466sec

Total
--- DMG: 2370654 (100%) @ 5087 dps (5087 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 1381490 @2971dps

Lleoc + pets
--- DMG: 675917 (28.51%) @ 1457 dps (1450 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 168567 @410dps

Kedrin + pets
--- DMG: 631935 (26.66%) @ 1371 dps (1356 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 171457 @417dps

Draeos + pets
--- DMG: 584018 (24.64%) @ 1270 dps (1253 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 2971 @11dps

Crynel
--- DMG: 249908 (10.54%) @ 537 dps (536 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 463400 @997dps

Eisley
--- DMG: 118848 (5.01%) @ 257 dps (255 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 129256 @314dps

Anti
--- DMG: 64303 (2.71%) @ 142 dps (138 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 136839 @333dps

Lets break this apart a little bit, That is 2 clerics who's buffed mana is around 10500-11k mana, 3 DPS who all do over 1200dps, and a warrior tank with 10400hp 2450ac. The fight takes place over 7 minutes and we do 2.3million damage to it. This group should be over tier for anything in the game currently or at the very least on tier for it, but the problem is the loot this mob drops does not reflect the difficulty anymore, It used to, does not now. This is by far the biggest gear check fight i have seen in the entire game and its loot is terrible. By the end of the fight clerics ware on fumes.
(I won't go into much more detail about the fight publicly if Woldaff or Slaar care and want to know more about this fight just PM me in game or on the boards here i'll describe it in detail and try and make sure you can be around next time we do it.)

Next on the list OG Twins!
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Prime_Twins

This is a pretty cool fight, but this fight is the real reason for this post, It is not killable by the force the gear we have seen thus far is aimed at. T11 breaking 12. I'm sorry no spires/turruj basement geared guild will ever kill this mob as it is, every-time we have killed it, its been down to the skin of our teeth, the last kill infact if another 2 seconds had gone by the AE in the fight would have grown big enough to 1 shot tanks.

Heres the parse of our last kill. Keep in mind this is a 2 mob parse and in this parse i'm probably missing at least a 3rd of the DPS if not more due to not being in range of the second mob 40% of the time.

Combined: Prime Researcher Kuniqui on 3/3/2013 in 308sec

Total
--- DMG: 3527704 (100%) @ 11454 dps (11454 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 673219 @2215dps

Kedrin + pets
--- DMG: 426683 (12.1%) @ 1408 dps (1385 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 46899 @188dps

Solosolki + pets
--- DMG: 386439 (10.95%) @ 1504 dps (1255 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 6962 @111dps

Draeos + pets
--- DMG: 384931 (10.91%) @ 1258 dps (1250 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 12000 @279dps

Lleoc + pets
--- DMG: 292712 (8.3%) @ 950 dps (950 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 35939 @125dps

Xaltec
--- DMG: 283994 (8.05%) @ 1101 dps (922 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 9590 @152dps

Adalus
--- DMG: 273217 (7.74%) @ 1089 dps (887 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 6762 @107dps

Kiseble + pets
--- DMG: 232734 (6.6%) @ 766 dps (756 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 47593 @171dps

Kjiel + pets
--- DMG: 215293 (6.1%) @ 711 dps (699 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 42228 @164dps

Reehs + pets
--- DMG: 196114 (5.56%) @ 647 dps (637 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 24631 @91dps

Zapple + pets
--- DMG: 175454 (4.97%) @ 685 dps (570 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 55117 @875dps

Barbii + pets
--- DMG: 134779 (3.82%) @ 449 dps (438 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 73505 @259dps

Jraul
--- DMG: 115204 (3.27%) @ 391 dps (374 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 19171 @249dps

Fbruce
--- DMG: 70316 (1.99%) @ 271 dps (228 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 12160 @193dps

Eisley + pets
--- DMG: 70195 (1.99%) @ 232 dps (228 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 15374 @78dps

Bango
--- DMG: 61416 (1.74%) @ 236 dps (199 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 176300 @681dps

Hypedog
--- DMG: 44897 (1.27%) @ 150 dps (146 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 17000 @270dps

Anti + pets
--- DMG: 32021 (0.91%) @ 106 dps (104 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 14696 @52dps

Radaere + pets
--- DMG: 29449 (0.83%) @ 105 dps (96 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 12905 @205dps

Puppii
--- DMG: 28193 (0.8%) @ 94 dps (92 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 14980 @348dps

Lilscrappy
--- DMG: 22693 (0.64%) @ 113 dps (74 sdps)

Zurkka
--- DMG: 16095 (0.46%) @ 218 dps (52 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 8330 @132dps

Plaps
--- DMG: 15512 (0.44%) @ 64 dps (50 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 21077 @74dps

Casteracgear
--- DMG: 9702 (0.28%) @ 190 dps (32 sdps)

Cuddles
--- DMG: 9661 (0.27%) @ 42 dps (31 sdps)

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I just posted the parse for perspective, I truly 100% belive this fight is not going to be killable by anything less then the most absurdly geared/tomed/charmed raid possible, and atm that is us. If that is indeed the idea of this mob, to only be killable after you have progressed pass the intended tier for the loot then ignore this bit. Otherwise either the loot or the mob needs to be looked at, My recommendation would just be add another second or 2 between the AE's or drop there damage by 1-2%. But its not my sandbox these are just my thoughts!


Last one i can think of atm would be Gru'Niet Tribe
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Gru`Niet_Tribe

This encounter was recently rebalanced, Because it was deemed to easy, i'll agree it was quite easy so long as you had a competent enchanter and a competent anything else to deal with the sappers. It also doesn't exactly fit into this thread but should be looked at none the less. We killed this mob after its rebalance a week or so ago and boy was it unbalanced. All of our casters ware oom before 50%, and then melees just sat there with there d*ck in there hand for the last 50%, Not much had changed besides the flashfloods not being mezzable but they didn't do much? It easily had twice but i'd be more inclined to say 3 times the HP it had previously, This mob is just a pita and it was and now definitely is the most boring fight i've done to date. It needs to be looked at really bad. Its just dull and a giant time sink of a fight, a fight thats been in game the way it was for years.

Now please before anyone just fucking assumes i'm either A) Tooting my own horn or B) Trying to get better loot or C) Trying to make the mobs easier so we can kill them. I just have one thing to say, we can currently kill all 3 of these mobs where others cannot and i simply would like to see these mobs be killed by other people maybe and atm the first 2 it will be impossible.

I understand its your sandbox and if anything in this post came off assholey its just cuz its 5am and i'm tired. If you think i'm just full of it or whatever ignore this post and let it die, otherwise please take a look at these fights and if you have any questions about the fights mechanics or anything just send me a tell in game or a PM on the boards here i'll be happy to share.
 
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Nwaij

Dalayan Pious Diety
Wait, Gru'niet was changed from "Enchanter gets to shine" to "casters are useless >50% of the fight"?

Sadness.
 

Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
Wait, Gru'niet was changed from "Enchanter gets to levitate in a corner and wish the goddamn fight would end already"
I fixed that. It was really boring as an enchanter too because mezzing them wasnt hard at all.
 

Lleoc

Dalayan Master
posting the parse you did of twins gives your argument no justifaction you should really just post the burn phase because thats the only thing that is staggeringly out of proportion in difficulty vs loot reward
 

sheer1

Dalayan Elder
posting the parse you did of twins gives your argument no justifaction you should really just post the burn phase because thats the only thing that is staggeringly out of proportion in difficulty vs loot reward
raid dps was ~20600 in just under 90 seconds during that part.
 

Kedrin

Dalayan Pious Diety
I think the main point is: it's sad to kill a difficult fight, strategy or gear check, and see new server first loot that literary not one person would want/use. Then when this happen with 2 out of the 3 items we have ever seen from said mob, it's disheartening. I guess Draeos wants to use the arms one day but they seem terrible for anyone else.
 

Silosobi

Dalayan Pious Diety
I've been thinking exactly this for a long time now. Both twins and Curator are hardcore gear checks for the best FWF raids we can put together. Their dps requirements is absolutely insane. They also both only drop 1 loot, and its in the t11-12 range.
 

Waldoff

Administrator
Staff member
I can look at the mob gear checks in overgrowth and see if they are too high for loot.


Given we are hoping for a release of Thaz this week, it will likely be this weekend.
 

sheer1

Dalayan Elder
also, its not like anything is drastically too hard for the loot, or that the loot is completely terrible and unusable. enough people are wearing curator gear to prove that point. generally the items that people are indifferent towards are very saturated slots, that people just recently (in mmo terms i guess) got upgrades for, and these new ones are, at best, an uninteresting alternative. if these fights were doable 2ish tiers lower they would probably be really great upgrades, but as it is fwf barely has enough to do raid wise, so i hope its the loot that gets rebalanced instead of the fights themselves (which are still good/fun/engaging)

edit: oh yea and what tevinter said down below, i was trying to rally for that to be arch lich but im not sure if that would be too much to ask for, but it would at least make the clicky part interesting to rangers/beastlords.
 
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Radaere

Dalayan Elder
also, its not like anything is drastically too hard for the loot, or that the loot is completely terrible and unusable. enough people are wearing curator gear to prove that point. generally the items that people are indifferent towards are very saturated slots, that people just recently (in mmo terms i guess) got upgrades for, and these new ones are, at best, an uninteresting alternative. if these fights were doable 2ish tiers lower they would probably be really great upgrades, but as it is fwf barely has enough to do raid wise, so i hope its the loot that gets rebalanced instead of the fights themselves (which are still good/fun/engaging)

edit: oh yea and what tevinter said down below, i was trying to rally for that to be arch lich but im not sure if that would be too much to ask for, but it would at least make the clicky part interesting to rangers/beastlords.
I too hope the fights themselves don't get changed but maybe that the loot gets looked at instead. I liked the challenge of these fights a lot.
 

Melestav

Dalayan Beginner
Designing content with one guild in mind does tend to cause problems, this being one of the symptoms.
 

Xeras

Dalayan Adventurer
Designing content with one guild in mind does tend to cause problems, this being one of the symptoms.
Some of the content that was discussed in the OP is geared towards tier 11-12ish i.e. Sacred Band. So I don't really see why you feel the need to make a snippy comment such as this. Anyhow I do agree that the OG twins seems pretty brutal as is.
 

Obscenitor

Dalayan Elder
Designing content with one guild in mind does tend to cause problems, this being one of the symptoms.
As long as there is only one guild at the top tier of content there will only be one guild testing new content at or above that tier.
 

Obscenitor

Dalayan Elder
I forgot who said this, but it summed up overgrowth nicely:

you need tier 13 characters to kill tier 12 mobs that drop tier 11 loot
I'd say that the Infested Monstrosity fight is balanced pretty well (in both difficulty and item reward) for its intended tier.
 

Silosobi

Dalayan Pious Diety
Monstrosity seems pretty good as-is. Curator and Twins are t13 gear checks for t11-12 loot. The bard was broken last we tried (may be fixed now). Warden seems like a T13 or higher fight (wrecked the best group we could come up with even when we did things right, mana just didn't last) whos one known loot is now t11-12ish.

Would it be possible to list the intended tier of new encounters on the main page or something maybe? I dont want any strat leaks, but devs have provided general tier information in the past.

I don't particularly *want* to spend a ton of my 6man/raid time learning fights that seem really difficult/on tier. If something was labeled as t11-12 or (early turuj tier) or any hint like that, other guilds might be inclined to try them, rather than just assuming that anything new is FWF content (which it clearly is not)
 
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