Enchanter agro
- Thread starter Foolra
- Start date
lotox said:
Maybe I am just missing the sarcasm in this post... but if you did not cast and got attacked I doubt it has anything to do with your class.
Mobs will attack low level characters, and they will attack sitting characters, either of these two likely explains why you were attacked.
They may (I really dont know) attack based on AC as well (int casters do have lower ac, and are thus easier to kill, so a better target for the mob).
I dont think there is any class based agro, I think it all depends on level, actions (yes, sitting is an action), and possibly stats such as AC.
Foolra
Misser of Due Dates
Thanks a lot for all the replies to the thread. I've learned quite a bit. I guess I still have a lot to learn about agro management. When I played on live, I was a monk and controlling agro was as simple as hitting the 6 key. I understand most of the way agro works from raiding a lot, but the changes made on this server to mob AI are something new for me, and I will have to work more to get used to them.
If you have a mage or druid in the group, slowing = reduced DPS. Reduced DPS = fewer kills in the same amount of tine, fewer kills = less exp and money, and less exp and money = bad.Tasal said:
Thus we come to my thesis: slow = bad.
I'll be traveling to Sweden shortly to receive my medal from the King.
Sorry, month old thread but I have some thoughts on this. My Dalaya enchanter is only level 12, most of my experience is on EQ, so my comments are for Enchanters in general rather than within Dalaya.
I had an enchanter on the EQ Test server, level 70 with about 400 AA's. Test had a command to let you reset your AAs once per week and respend them. It really let you test things out. At one time the dev team revamped how agro worked for enchanters. During that development, some patches to Test were really off base but it was good to learn from. We also had AAs that were coded wrong and did the opposite of what was intended. Also a good learning exp since "with vs without" effects were doubled.
What I learned was that enchanters should be the agro control class. The things we do should generate agro, its a very powerful class and not to have a downside would be overpowering (hence the long list of enchanter nerfs they put in).
We had patches that completely removed all of our agro. I could chain cast tash and slow on a mob, and not get agro off of a cleric. They quickly changed that again, but it makes you realize that having agro isn't always a bad thing. The clerics, wizards, necro's and mages all prefer you to have more agro than them, and I do too. I just think that the enchanter class also needs to be able to avoid and mitigae damage a bit better than the other classes, otherwise we will constantly be resetting to our bind point
.
Enchanters really had a tough time during Omens, since the level cap was raised to 70. When you were level 70 and had all of the damage mitigation/avoidance AA's (I think it accounted for 105 AA points or so) you were "balanced" for the game content of that expansion. I mean balanced as in I could do my thing and didn't die more than I should have (although more than other caster classes).
When we hunted in older expansions such as PoP, a level 70 enchanter was crazy overpowered. I could solo level 71 named mobs in Halls of Honor. That just isn't right. I could also be main tank in Tower of Sol Ro, with only a druid healer (a bot at that). Thats overpowered.
At the same time, getting to level 70 and all those AA's was pure torture, since the expansion content was built with the high end in mind. It meant that as an enchanter in the expansion zones I was completely useless, since all I did was get a naked port back to my bind every few minutes. It only changed once I was 70 and AA'ed. The death toll difference was astonishing, and playing EQ as a level 66 enchanter was no fun at all. And level 70/AAed was also not fun because it was so overpowered in older zones.
The enchanter class is probably one of the hardest classes to balance, and to the dev's I think it always appeared to be going out of balance. Fix a hole in one zone, and it creates an exploit in another.
For myself, a "balanced" enchanter class is one in which our spells inherently draw a high agro, plus we also tend to be the busiest at the time of a pull (deal with adds, do debuffs on mobs). Most other classes can wait on their spells for a bit, but often the enchanter needs to cast early on. Thats the price we pay. But, we should also be able to withstand the punishment we will have coming to us, or to properly control agro. We need to have this throughout our levels, and gaping holes of being underpowered tend to make you almost useless, since death is suddenly too common. You become a liability to a group, rather than a strong asset.
Controlling agro on EQ was mostly good. Many enchanters disagreed, there are many ways to play an enchanter. The flexibility was part of the complexity. When people posted regarding "agro management" they usually meant "how to lower agro". For me, it was how to manipulate agro to your situation. I often wanted to maintain the second highest agro in the group; only the main tank ahead of me. That let the cleric maintain a constant target instead of healing several people. Also, it meant that if agro was lost from the main tank that the cleric/wiz/mage/necro's weren't next in line. I kept myself near the fight, so that if agro changed the mobs wouldn't run about as much.
Ideally we would have a spell that is just like the warrior taunt but gives you just a bit less agro. That way the tank is top of the agro list, but the enchanter is next. This also makes it too easy, in my mind. we should have to guess a bit where we are on the agro list. That adds excitement, and makes it so that its harder to play. Harder to play means that the good players stand out.
But, sometimes you just need to drop agro. This happened when we had a tank who was lower level or lesser geared, or didn't have enough AA's. I think the class should be felexible enough to let you play in a variety of situations, and tailor your spells accordingly. I dropped my agro reduction AA's completely, and didn't repurchase them. I used the spells instead, since I could customize my agro as the situation needed. That wasn't possible if I had the AA's.
We had a jolt line of spells that lowered our agro. We had Tash line that was quick casting and added agro fairly well. We had stuns (mostly ineffective except to interrupt spellcasting mobs and to raise agro). I used these often with tanks lower level than me. It let me do my thing, take some punishment if I had to, but also let a tank regain agro fairly well.
Enchanters should take a beating. We should die more than other casters; what we do is dangerous and its very beneficial to our group. We should also have a few skills or benefits to let us deal with these issues, but it shouldn't make us solo gods. Its a very tough line to draw.
I always thought enchanters are one of the hardest classes to play, but the most exciting because of that. I see them as the rodeo clown of group hunting. Fun to watch, exciting, in the face of danger, odds against you, the one to draw the attention of the enemy on short notice, death always a possibility, just a small hop into the barrel of safety, the Hero of the day when things turn for the worse unexpectedly. But we are not a replacement for the cowboys/tanks when things go right. We don't help out a lot when the pull is perfect, the mobs are fairly easily dispatched. Our barrel is our agro reduction spell lineup. Our silk pajama's are just a clown suit. Most of our power is situational. We adapt.
Enchanters are the least likely class to be botted, unless its purely as a brain candy fix. The role they play in a group requires constant attention if it is to be done well. Enchanter bots don't die often; but they also don't do much. The reason you die is because you are powerful and useful. You can manage some of that agro by working with others in the group. What you do depends on the group makeup. Delay your tash a few seconds, let the shaman mala before you tash (unless they get to many resists and need tash), have the warrior taunt an added mob as well as their main target or use their AoE taunts when there is an add on pulls, stand back from the battle a bit, use your stuns to control a resisted mez, adapt to the group makeup, adapt to which characters are beig played and which are bots, adapt to their levels and gear. Lots of things to do, many are situational.
Thats the fun of it.
I had an enchanter on the EQ Test server, level 70 with about 400 AA's. Test had a command to let you reset your AAs once per week and respend them. It really let you test things out. At one time the dev team revamped how agro worked for enchanters. During that development, some patches to Test were really off base but it was good to learn from. We also had AAs that were coded wrong and did the opposite of what was intended. Also a good learning exp since "with vs without" effects were doubled.
What I learned was that enchanters should be the agro control class. The things we do should generate agro, its a very powerful class and not to have a downside would be overpowering (hence the long list of enchanter nerfs they put in).
We had patches that completely removed all of our agro. I could chain cast tash and slow on a mob, and not get agro off of a cleric. They quickly changed that again, but it makes you realize that having agro isn't always a bad thing. The clerics, wizards, necro's and mages all prefer you to have more agro than them, and I do too. I just think that the enchanter class also needs to be able to avoid and mitigae damage a bit better than the other classes, otherwise we will constantly be resetting to our bind point
.Enchanters really had a tough time during Omens, since the level cap was raised to 70. When you were level 70 and had all of the damage mitigation/avoidance AA's (I think it accounted for 105 AA points or so) you were "balanced" for the game content of that expansion. I mean balanced as in I could do my thing and didn't die more than I should have (although more than other caster classes).
When we hunted in older expansions such as PoP, a level 70 enchanter was crazy overpowered. I could solo level 71 named mobs in Halls of Honor. That just isn't right. I could also be main tank in Tower of Sol Ro, with only a druid healer (a bot at that). Thats overpowered.
At the same time, getting to level 70 and all those AA's was pure torture, since the expansion content was built with the high end in mind. It meant that as an enchanter in the expansion zones I was completely useless, since all I did was get a naked port back to my bind every few minutes. It only changed once I was 70 and AA'ed. The death toll difference was astonishing, and playing EQ as a level 66 enchanter was no fun at all. And level 70/AAed was also not fun because it was so overpowered in older zones.
The enchanter class is probably one of the hardest classes to balance, and to the dev's I think it always appeared to be going out of balance. Fix a hole in one zone, and it creates an exploit in another.
For myself, a "balanced" enchanter class is one in which our spells inherently draw a high agro, plus we also tend to be the busiest at the time of a pull (deal with adds, do debuffs on mobs). Most other classes can wait on their spells for a bit, but often the enchanter needs to cast early on. Thats the price we pay. But, we should also be able to withstand the punishment we will have coming to us, or to properly control agro. We need to have this throughout our levels, and gaping holes of being underpowered tend to make you almost useless, since death is suddenly too common. You become a liability to a group, rather than a strong asset.
Controlling agro on EQ was mostly good. Many enchanters disagreed, there are many ways to play an enchanter. The flexibility was part of the complexity. When people posted regarding "agro management" they usually meant "how to lower agro". For me, it was how to manipulate agro to your situation. I often wanted to maintain the second highest agro in the group; only the main tank ahead of me. That let the cleric maintain a constant target instead of healing several people. Also, it meant that if agro was lost from the main tank that the cleric/wiz/mage/necro's weren't next in line. I kept myself near the fight, so that if agro changed the mobs wouldn't run about as much.
Ideally we would have a spell that is just like the warrior taunt but gives you just a bit less agro. That way the tank is top of the agro list, but the enchanter is next. This also makes it too easy, in my mind. we should have to guess a bit where we are on the agro list. That adds excitement, and makes it so that its harder to play. Harder to play means that the good players stand out.
But, sometimes you just need to drop agro. This happened when we had a tank who was lower level or lesser geared, or didn't have enough AA's. I think the class should be felexible enough to let you play in a variety of situations, and tailor your spells accordingly. I dropped my agro reduction AA's completely, and didn't repurchase them. I used the spells instead, since I could customize my agro as the situation needed. That wasn't possible if I had the AA's.
We had a jolt line of spells that lowered our agro. We had Tash line that was quick casting and added agro fairly well. We had stuns (mostly ineffective except to interrupt spellcasting mobs and to raise agro). I used these often with tanks lower level than me. It let me do my thing, take some punishment if I had to, but also let a tank regain agro fairly well.
Enchanters should take a beating. We should die more than other casters; what we do is dangerous and its very beneficial to our group. We should also have a few skills or benefits to let us deal with these issues, but it shouldn't make us solo gods. Its a very tough line to draw.
I always thought enchanters are one of the hardest classes to play, but the most exciting because of that. I see them as the rodeo clown of group hunting. Fun to watch, exciting, in the face of danger, odds against you, the one to draw the attention of the enemy on short notice, death always a possibility, just a small hop into the barrel of safety, the Hero of the day when things turn for the worse unexpectedly. But we are not a replacement for the cowboys/tanks when things go right. We don't help out a lot when the pull is perfect, the mobs are fairly easily dispatched. Our barrel is our agro reduction spell lineup. Our silk pajama's are just a clown suit. Most of our power is situational. We adapt.
Enchanters are the least likely class to be botted, unless its purely as a brain candy fix. The role they play in a group requires constant attention if it is to be done well. Enchanter bots don't die often; but they also don't do much. The reason you die is because you are powerful and useful. You can manage some of that agro by working with others in the group. What you do depends on the group makeup. Delay your tash a few seconds, let the shaman mala before you tash (unless they get to many resists and need tash), have the warrior taunt an added mob as well as their main target or use their AoE taunts when there is an add on pulls, stand back from the battle a bit, use your stuns to control a resisted mez, adapt to the group makeup, adapt to which characters are beig played and which are bots, adapt to their levels and gear. Lots of things to do, many are situational.
Thats the fun of it.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
That's a well-thought-out and wordly post, but I fear a lot of that just doesn't translate from live. The rule of thumb is about only half of what you know from company's game will help, and that's about accurate. Aggro here at level 65 is different beast than live, but there are plenty of tools to dodge it if you need to. Mitigation and avoidance is about the same for us here as live, with the exception that AR is missing in action. We still get the AA rune, however, and if you really need the extra padding there's summoned peridots for the normal rune. Encs here get an aa that, at max rank, gives 25% block, but you have to be near an animation--I consider it to be very nearly worthless, but that's for me; other enchanters who spend more time with shiney bob and aggro may swear by it, and I almost never have the pet up anyway.
First thing that'll take getting used to: tash is almost no aggro
First thing that'll take getting used to: tash is almost no aggro
Foolra
Misser of Due Dates
Thinkmeats said:First thing that'll take getting used to: tash is almost no aggro
I disagree on that one. I can pull agro easily from an MT on a mob if I tash too early (within first 10 or so seconds). I also seem to remember reading tash was a lot of agro earlier in this thread.
The thing that gets me more than anything is the way the advanced AI works (heard it was accredited to this, but could be something else). When I mez a mob, I also generally tash it while it is mezzed just to make things easier. If I do not memblur the mob (which is a high cost spell, doesn't always work even when it lands, and can be resisted), the mob will run at me while I'm medding, hit me once (to stop me from medding, I suppose) and then run back to MT. I've gotten to where I sit there like a gunslinger ready to draw with crtl+s. It appears that only people who get on the agro list early are subject to this problem, though I could be mistaken. People can draw agro later on in the fight, sure, but they don't seem to keep getting whacked every 10 or so seconds. Makes it very hard to med and change out spells if needed.
That's not AI that's sit agro, when you sit you get a "bonus" to your hate.
On live it simply set your level to 1 for the porpuse of agro, since agro list have a level modifiy then you go to the top of the list if you where anyware near the top when you stand.
For example you where at 10 hate, tank goes taunt gain top of the list with 10+1 he then hit the mobs a few time and get 1 more hate for a total of 12, you sit down gaining a modifier of 50%, you are now at base 10 hate but on the list you showed up as 15, mob goes to beat you makeing you stand and drop your hate from 15 to 10.
The only thing i never was able to test was what happen if i sit when the tank taunt to get agro, would he gain my midified hate or my standing hate.
