Enchanter agro

Foolra

Foolra

Misser of Due Dates
I wanted to play an enchanter when I started on SoD since it was something totally different from what I played before, and I do really enjoy it. Actually being useful to a group is something I enjoy, as opposed to just being "dps" which is what I was before SoD.

As I've progressed through levels with my enchanter, I've seen a consistent issue with agro generated from our spells. It seems to be quite a bit higher than other casting classes. I have been told by some people that it is designed this way, as enchanters represent a greater threat to mobs than some other classes. I don't know if I believe that as I think it's a bit silly. Heals, nukes and other debuffs represent dangers to a mob just as much, if not more, than enchanter spells.

A few examples to show what I am talking about. It is possible I am just imagining this and exagerating the amount of agro I generate, but after playing all this time, I don't think I am.

In a group situation, I can hold agro almost the entire fight with a mez and a slow. I have done this with a warrior and a monk tanking. I have tried using stun to give the tank time to gain agro without me taking damage, and it does work sometimes. Other times it does not. Root almost never seems to work, unless the root lasts for 40-50% of the mob's life. If it breaks early, the mob will almost always run straight at me. It seems that whatever methods I use to drop agro generate too much agro for the tank to overcome during the method's duration.

If I attempt to med after the tank has agro, the mob will run at me at least 3 times per fight, hit me once, and then run back to tank. I understand this is an "advanced AI" that mobs have, attempting to eliminate a casters ability to regain mana. However, I almost never see this happen to other classes, healers in particular. I'm sure it does on occasion, but if I have to do something to a mob before it is at 95%, I will have problems the rest of the fight without doing anything else. For a class that has to cast a lot before a tank can do something (crowd control) this seems to be a huge problem.

Another example, this time from a raid. We were attempting to kill Traekoth the Ancient a little while ago. Our MT engaged (57 warrior) and attacked/taunted till Traekoth was at 97%. At least two clerics CHed by then, as well as a few patch heals hitting prior to/alongside the CHs. At 97%, as melees were heading into fight, I casted tash on the dragon. He immediately ran directly at me. I ran him back to where MT was and stood there while MT tried to taunt off me. Traekoth killed me pretty quickly, obviously. It seems borderline ridiculous that an MR buff would do something like that.

I understand the visage line of spells that help control agro. However, the +/- 5% ones seem to do almost nothing. According to the spell database, a 50% agro reduction spell is available at level 54 which will help in a raid situation. However, I shouldn't need to cast this type of spell all the time. I feel like I am not as useful as I could be in a combat situation because I have to worry constantly about getting agro. Recently, there was a problem with heal agro, people complained and it was fixed almost immediately. Wondering if someone could take a look at chanter agro to see what is up.

As I said, I may be completely out of my mind, but if I'm not (and hopefully some other chanters will back me up on this), I think this agro should be looked at on some of these spells and possibly made more in line with agro generated by spells cast by other classes.

Thanks for considering this.
 
Aggro control can be difficult. If you're usually leading with tash, that could be the problem. Tash has a relatively huge amount of aggro associated with it by design. When it's really vital is in a raid and a tash'd raid mob is a whole different story for the other debuffers in the raid than an untash'd mob, can really change the encounter. Therefore, there's a high price aggro-wise for tashing. Speaking as a necro, I can keep aggro from most tanks I group with without trying. In fact, earlier today I was easily pulling aggro off of a paladin and two rangers even playing conservatively. The wiz in the group pulled aggro a few times as well. Learning to manage aggro as a caster is part of the game. That said, I'm speaking from a mixture of SoD and live experience (much more live than SoD) so some of what I said may not be valid for SoD... I'd take it with a grain of salt.
 
Xalsturi said:
Aggro control can be difficult. If you're usually leading with tash, that could be the problem. Tash has a relatively huge amount of aggro associated with it by design. When it's really vital is in a raid and a tash'd raid mob is a whole different story for the other debuffers in the raid than an untash'd mob, can really change the encounter. Therefore, there's a high price aggro-wise for tashing. Speaking as a necro, I can keep aggro from most tanks I group with without trying. In fact, earlier today I was easily pulling aggro off of a paladin and two rangers even playing conservatively. The wiz in the group pulled aggro a few times as well. Learning to manage aggro as a caster is part of the game. That said, I'm speaking from a mixture of SoD and live experience (much more live than SoD) so some of what I said may not be valid for SoD... I'd take it with a grain of salt.
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I almost never tash on group mobs, as most spells I need to land (mez and slow) hit without too much difficulty on mobs you would be exping against.

I understand controlling agro is important, and it is what I try to do. But if I can't do the things that I need to do as an enchanter without having the mob either on me completely or running at me every few seconds, then I would like to know why.

I would just like to know what the status is versus spells cast by other classes. In my experience (as I posted above) enchanter agro seems to be higher than other casting classes.
 
Based on my experience (never played and ench tho) debuff spells are designed to created large amounts of aggro. This is why SK's are so good at holding it. Comparing your aggro to a wizard or anything similar to that wont work because to my knowledge wizard nukes do not contain a debuff component, whereas just about all enchanter spells have a debuff involved of some sort (i'm basing this knowledge on a run through of the sod.camongrel.de spell list). So the issue isnt the aggro created by enchanters specifically, the problem lies within your line of spells. And really it isnt a problem per se, since it is designed to have that large aggro effect. Mobs just dont like to be weakened. So, some solutions (assuming you havent tried any of them) would be to either root the mob (if tank is only melee in group) or limit your spell to non-debuffs untill tank has aquired enough aggro. Group with an SK, Pal, War, and you will see how well the sk holds aggro simply because all his aggro spells are debuffs, or specifially made for aggro. Paladins can do a pretty good job with stuns, but not as effective as SK, and wars are pretty much luck with taunt/weapon procs to generate aggro. I would further suggest (at the risk of sounding presumptious) that you find a higher quality/level/experienced tank for your groups. However i'm sure the last suggestion will be a bit hard considering there arent a whole lot to choose from.

Take from this post what you want, and apply it where/if you feel necessary, but I dont think there is an inherent "problem" with enchanter aggro. Unless it is a lack of ability to manage it.

While there may be tweaks to it in the future, my current position on this (although i have no say, im just a gamer) is that dont count on any changes to how debuffs work in the near future.
 
kineldar said:
Based on my experience (never played and ench tho) debuff spells are designed to created large amounts of aggro. This is why SK's are so good at holding it. Comparing your aggro to a wizard or anything similar to that wont work because to my knowledge wizard nukes do not contain a debuff component, whereas just about all enchanter spells have a debuff involved of some sort (i'm basing this knowledge on a run through of the sod.camongrel.de spell list). So the issue isnt the aggro created by enchanters specifically, the problem lies within your line of spells. And really it isnt a problem per se, since it is designed to have that large aggro effect. Mobs just dont like to be weakened. So, some solutions (assuming you havent tried any of them) would be to either root the mob (if tank is only melee in group) or limit your spell to non-debuffs untill tank has aquired enough aggro. Group with an SK, Pal, War, and you will see how well the sk holds aggro simply because all his aggro spells are debuffs, or specifially made for aggro. Paladins can do a pretty good job with stuns, but not as effective as SK, and wars are pretty much luck with taunt/weapon procs to generate aggro. I would further suggest (at the risk of sounding presumptious) that you find a higher quality/level/experienced tank for your groups. However i'm sure the last suggestion will be a bit hard considering there arent a whole lot to choose from.

Take from this post what you want, and apply it where/if you feel necessary, but I dont think there is an inherent "problem" with enchanter aggro. Unless it is a lack of ability to manage it.

While there may be tweaks to it in the future, my current position on this (although i have no say, im just a gamer) is that dont count on any changes to how debuffs work in the near future.
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I have spoken with a couple enchanters in game as to how to handle this. Maybe with more experience I will become better at it. But spells that I have available to me right now to help control a mob (namely root and stun) seem to generate a fair amount of agro themselves, and I have often seen a mob run at me when root breaks. Stun seems to work better, but there are several types of mobs that are immune to stun.

I get what you're saying about debuffs having increased agro, but when 85% of what I do in an offensive capabilty is a debuff/restriction of some sort, it makes it hard to not get agro. I think one of the things I've noticed quite a bit is that if I get agro on a mob prior to the tank fighting (for example, if I have to CC) then that will agro will stick with me much more so than if I have to do something to a mob later in the fight. Is there something in the code that keeps people near the top of the agro list if they are among the first to do something to it?

If this is the way enchanters are, I just want to fully understand what it is that I am doing wrong and what I can do to fix it so I can be more effective.

I still think getting creamed by Traekoth after casting Tash was absurd, though. I haven't paid as much attention to it, but the malo line doesn't seem to generate as much agro as some of the things I have to cast, and that is a much more serious resist debuff. Once again, I could be wrong - just trying to understand how it works.
 
With a warrior tank at that level there are going to be aggro problems period. At 65 warriors get an awesome aggro boost; when killing raid mobs they can get high end aggro proc weapons. In the 50s, though, they rely on taunt to regain aggro and whatever DPS and so-so weapon procs they can manage. A warrior tanking in a situation like that might actually want to have multiple extra weapons to switch between in order to get off a lot of different procs. The snare whip for starters, then switch it out for some other debuff type proccing weapon, since a re-proc before snare wears off wouldn't generate any additional aggro.

Basically, with debuffing a raid mob early with a warrior tank, you're going up against the warrior's DPS. If he's the only one fighting it, he's going to be pretty limited. If he's lucky and gets a proc off in that first 3%, that's going to help a lot. Aside from that, though, he's not going to have a lot of luck. It's not uncommon to have to wait until 90% or lower to debuff and slow a mob with a sub-65 warrior tank.

There's really not much you can do about the amount of aggro your spells generate, at least pre-AA. You just have to get a sense of when you can cast.

As for the mez and slow in an exp group, there are a number of options. First off, make sure you keep up with remezes and that your groupmates aren't breaking mez. If you recast a mez (or other debuff) before the original one wears off, you generate little or no additional aggro. If the original spell has worn off, you generate full aggro. So if mez wears off and you remez, it's double the aggro. Likewise if someone breaks it.

Even when you get past multiplying mez aggro, though, one mez and a slow generate a lot of aggro. A paladin or SK should have no problem dealing with it (any paladin, especially with a chanter in the group for mana regen buffs, should have a very easy time holding aggro using blind and cease... 12 and 10 mana respectively, for uber aggro). With a warrior, first make sure no one but the warrior breaks aggro. Your best bet is to have the warrior taunt several times before breaking mez. As you probably know, taunt is a hit or miss kinda thing. The level difference between the warrior and the mob affect how likely it is to succeed (along with, I would guess, a variety of other facts... but level seems to be the biggest one). One successful taunt and the warrior will have aggro (puts him at the top of the aggro list with hate = previous top score + 1). If he taunts 3-4 times before breaking on a standard low- or mid-range dark blue con mob, chances are one of them is going to land. Bear in mind that during this time you can remez the mob safely, even after the first couple of taunts, since it generates very little aggro if the mob is still mezzed.

Next option is to use the mem blur spells. Like taunt, they're hit-or-miss, though there's no indicator of whether they worked. It's a probability thing. I don't know anything about the equation use, but I'd guess that like taunt the level difference plays a part. Regardless, if you have the mana, several casts of mem blur might well help, while the rest of the group is finishing off the previous mob.

Finally there's the standard root option. Your best bet with it is to root the mob right before the tank breaks it, and make sure that any casters hold nukes until the mob is down a ways--even 5 mana nukes, which wizards like to break out early--since nukes have a chance of breaking root. Certain pets (mage fire pet, high level necro pets, and high level buffed beast pets) proc frequently and can also pose a threat to your root, so be aware of that. The root will make it so the group can start beating on the mob without waiting for the tank to taunt several times. The tank should, of course, be taunting away the whole time, until root breaks. Basically this just serves to keep the mob off you while the tank gets in his 3-4 taunts, like he would while it was mezzed.

You'll find that higher level roots are much, much better. It's worth the extra mana.

As for taking aggro from the paladin and rangers... fire the damn paladin. One blind generates almost exactly the same amount of aggro as a slow (i.e. the mob will attack whichever person is closer until the paladin hits the mob a couple times or casts another spell), and at least as much as a mez. A blind and a cease mean the paladin has aggro over all initial spells, and blind wears off in (i think) 2 ticks, so it can be recast frequently. If worst comes to worst, a paladin can chain blind, cease, and desist and the timing works perfectly with the stuns' refresh times and the blind wearing off. A paladin can hold aggro over any level 65 rogue in the game that way (in one of the 3 basic styles) for as long as he can keep the spells going without too many resists. And paladins can't hold aggro as well as SKs.

But yeah, when working with a warrior tank you just have to adapt to him. Depending on the warrior and how fast the mobs are dying, on the rare occasion I've had a warrior tank I've had to wait until the mob is 80-90% to slow. Occasionally longer, especially if I'm healing with my shaman.
 
For any rangers out there: your weapon proc spells (especially Call of the Mound) have a stun component built into them. These generate ++aggro, use/dont use them depending on situation.
 
Mythryn said:
Hasrett makes the longest posts.
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LOL! Not to change the direction of Foolra's post, but thanks Hasrett for the reply with great info! It actually help me to understand more fully some of the issues I have been having trying to MT with my warrior. I will try switching out my Tendon-Grip (thanks Luther!) with my other procing weapons and see how that works (until I gain more levels and can take advantage of my AA abilities -- not starting those till im 65 though).
 
As an enchanter I can tell you that it's a lot to do with learning when to cast what and what to do if you get aggro. Get used to the color swirl aoe stun line. Casting that, then a quick <3mem blur<3 and root if you feel it is needed will really help get you out of danger in a pinch. Outside of that it's just mastering timing.

P.S. be careful about mem blur though, as amazingly helpful as it can be, it can also be a wizards worst nightmare.
 
Ever since the change to paladin aggro, our stuns have started to really make mobs angry. Stunning to give the tank time may or may not let them make more aggro than the stun made, depends on the tank. Mez and slow both give crazy aggro.

Note that if a mob is rooted taunt (the skill) won't work on it, but many tanks don't understand this and mash the button anyway.

Tash, however, generates comparitively little aggro, and generally doesn't cause many problems. I'm not sure why traekoth felt it necessary to come and kick you down the stairs.
 
I play a 55 war and cleric with my wife's 54 enchanter and druid. I taunt twice before breaking a mez, and the mob only runs for the enchanter about 20% of the time. She waits until the mob is below 90% to slow, and rarely takes aggro for it.

As has been stated, roots, and especially stuns generate more aggro, so doing these things (if the root doesn't last long) may actually be making things worse.

Another thing you may try is getting someone else in the group to do the root. If the ench picks up aggro, I usually root with the cleric, which gives the war more time to regain aggro. I've never had a problem with the cleric picking up aggro from this.

I have no raid experience here on SoD yet, but enchanter aggro in normal groups definetly seems managable with the right strategies.
 
Note that if a mob is rooted taunt (the skill) won't work on it
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Just to clarify here: Taunt will work, but root "aggro" will be in effect. This means that it will attack the closest person that has any aggro on it. Taunt will still put the taunt-er at highest aggro+1.
 
Yeah, I think Yally is correct on taunt during roots. It does work, it just doesn't show while the mob is still rooted. While the mob is rooted aggro is 100% manageable by simply having everyone but the tank stand at max melee range--something which is generally a good idea to get into the habit of anyway.

And Myth--I write long posts about aggro because that's pretty much the only topic I know anything about =)
 
That's what I meant when I said taunt doesn't work when the mob is rooted. For similar reasons, taunt doesn't work when a cleric is DA'd or when a party member is mezzed--basically any time you would normally have aggro but your aggro is suppressed (via DA, mez, or mob root), as opposed to eliminated (memblur, FD), taunt will not add off your aggro but your aggro will still exist, and the moment that supressant is gone the mob will come wreck you.
 
Thinkmeats said:
That's what I meant when I said taunt doesn't work when the mob is rooted. For similar reasons, taunt doesn't work when a cleric is DA'd or when a party member is mezzed--basically any time you would normally have aggro but your aggro is suppressed (via DA, mez, or mob root), as opposed to eliminated (memblur, FD), taunt will not add off your aggro but your aggro will still exist, and the moment that supressant is gone the mob will come wreck you.
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I am probably having a "slow-moment" here, but what you are saying isn't making sense to me. Take this scenario for example:

You have high aggro on the mob. You root it and it turns on the tank because of the root-"aggro." You still have aggro at this point even though it is hitting the tank. However, the tank NOW uses taunt successfully. (root is still on and nothing happens visually.) Later, root breaks. The taunter is top aggro and therefor the mob will stay on him, again no visual change in mob possition. (assuming of course no one managed to out-aggro him/her post taunting.)

I'm sure you knew this, just making sure its 100% clear.
 
Yally said:
You have high aggro on the mob. You root it and it turns on the tank because of the root-"aggro." You still have aggro at this point even though it is hitting the tank. However, the tank NOW uses taunt successfully. (root is still on and nothing happens visually.) Later, root breaks. The taunter is top aggro and therefor the mob will stay on him, again no visual change in mob possition. (assuming of course no one managed to out-aggro him/her post taunting.)
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I believe that, in this scenario, the mob would come after you unless the tank had managed to pass your old aggro total. To go with arbitrary numbers:

Let's say you had 10 pts of aggro on the mob and you root it. The tank has 5 pts, and is fighting the rooted mob. He taunts successfully and gets put at 5+1, so 6, and his own weapons bring him up to 8. Root breaks early and the mob comes straight for the enchanter. The point being that taunt's "highest plus one" behaves differently than one might expect when the mob is rooted.

It's possible I'm wrong here, mind; I have no access to hard data on this one.
 
As far as I know Yally's description of it is correct. I don't think the hatelist changes when the mob is rooted; it simply attacks the nearest person. Thus a successful taunt would in fact put the tank back on top of the hate list.

If that is not the case, it seems like the system would bear some attention and possibly some changes.
 
Thinkmeats said:
Let's say you had 10 pts of aggro on the mob and you root it. The tank has 5 pts, and is fighting the rooted mob. He taunts successfully and gets put at 5+1,
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Except that a successful taunt puts the taunter at top-aggro + 1, so if you had 10 pts already, a successful taunt would put the taunter at 10+1 (assuming you were the top), not 5+1.
 
I believe where Thinkmeat is coming from is the idea that the person the mob is attacking, who would normally be the person with the highest aggro, is the one whose hate value is used for taunt. Thus you get the mob's target's aggro + 1, which unless the mob is rooted would work the way it's intended. If that's the case, it sounds like a bug related to the so-called root aggro. I imagine a warrior could tell you far better than a hybrid, since I rely on spells for my aggro.

An easy way to test it--which I'm far too lazy to do--would be to take two characters and go find a low or mid level mob. If I were to do it I'd slow the mob with my shaman, then root it with my paladin, ensuring that both had real numbers on the aggro list (and not just proximity aggro), and that the shaman had far more. Then I'd just taunt it half a dozen times with my paladin, and see if aggro stayed on me when root broke. Repeat the test half a dozen times and you'll have a good idea of whether taunt gives you target's aggro + 1 or highest number on the hate list + 1.
 
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