Druid Class Tome(s)

[purifiedbyfire7]

Hello. To give you all an idea of who's writing this: my main's name is Quintle.

This may not come as a shock to some of you (and I'm a little surprised this hasn't been brought up sooner), but I want to say a thing or two about the druid class tomes. More specifically, Advanced Apiculture. I know there has been discussion about druid class tomes previously, so I'm going to try not to overlap too much here.

I mean no offense to Grinkles and his ideas by some of the stuff I might write, but this Advanced Apiculture tome series is kind of a joke. I know I'm not the only one who feels that this class tome could either use some serious (and noticeable) improvement or get replaced altogether. While it is a clever and imaginitive idea (that's so Grinkles), I'm going to have to call it out on this one: it's almost a useless tome. I remember reading Grinkles' thoughts about strengthening a class's weakness through these class tomes. Not a bad desire, at all, but it just depends on how it's approached. [For some who are reading this; I'm bringing Grinkles up so much because he is basically the one who thought up the Advanced Apiculture tome (to my knowledge)].

Let's get to some specifics:
Advanced Apiculture - A 3/6/9/12% chance (according to wiki) that a Queen Bee will be summoned with the regular swarm of bees when Crawling Swarm or Relic: Doomswarm is casted and she will despawn with the rest of the bees.
Now... the bees are out for, what, about 10 seconds (haven't timed it), yes?
Scenario-wise, druids spend a lot of time healing in raid and traditional group (tank, healer, utility, dps) settings; possibly with some dps on the side. Soloing or kite groups are where their dot/swarms are used more frequently (which, might I add, I like the addition of the bees to beef up our dot spells). Plus, I haven't actually seen the bees show up indoors, yet. Only outside. Maybe I need to try harder or something...
Miss Queen Bee doesn't stray away from what the regular bees do except for adding 1 or 2 extra hits per round for about the same amount of damage, or a little higher, than the regular swarm bees (depending on which bees are out at the time). She sticks around for the exact same amount of time as the rest of the bees (about 10 seconds), then poofs.
As you can imagine, with, say, a 3% or even 6% chance for her showing up at all, with the amount druids actually use Crawling Swarm or Relic: Doomswarm -- ONLY OUTSIDE -- this chick isn't actually seen very much. And when she DOES show up, it's a rather underwhelming performance for all the time and work poured into obtaining and completing the class tome(s) (which are not at all fast tomes to complete).

Having a place to put my exp is nice, as most high tiered folks would side with me on that, but why am I not excited about hustling my butt to earn and spend 16 Refuge Tokens on this class tome and completing it? Why don't I feel much motivation to actually put my time and effort into getting and doing this tome? I want a tome that will make my character more effective, not just an exp dump with an under-par reward.
(To those of you who choose to fomelo me and see that I haven't even started Advanced Apiculture 1, yet: I've spent extensive time grouped, raiding, and kiting with a fellow druid who has Advanced Apiculture 2 finished; with me asking questions, keeping an eye out for the Queen's appearance, and seeing how she does when she's out).

I'm going to try to be careful how I tread on this one, but the idea of strengthening a class's weaknesses, while potentially useful, have shown not to be consistent at all in the class tomes of Shards of Dalaya. I know it can be 'dangerous' to compare one class's abilities to another class's abilities in the grand scheme of the game, so take it with a grain of salt. I'll only make swift mention of it. Mage: Word of Power - Wizard: All of them - Shaman: Tastes Like Chicken - Rogue: All of them - Ranger: All of them - Cleric: Tool of the Divine - Necro, Bstlord..... There's probably more (and a handful of arguments ready to add/subtract to/from that list), but my point is that there are some awesome class tomes out there that're totally worth doing that actually strengthen the class's strengths in a noticeable way, thus making the player more effective.
As a side note, I'm letting the Euphorbium Mastery slide since I like big-point ds's (as do many people), it's innate, and appropriate in association to that of the class of a druid.

OKAY!
So.

Suggestions?!?
If it's decided to keep the concept of the class tome at hand the same, I would recommend something along the lines of a significantly higher percentage of the Queen Bee showing up upon casting the appropriate spells as a no-brainer, plus another perk or two.
Such as:
1. The Queen Bee doesn't despawn with her brood but stays for the remainder of the fight until the mob it was sent on is dead. Maybe having a maximum of two or three Queen Bees out from the same owner on one mob.
2. The Queen Bee is innately hasted and/or hits quite a bit harder than the regular bees and/or has a special ability that activates when she's out (could be a damage spell that procs on a timer (much like the druid frog pet), or something that benefits the druid/group that fits in the song bar).
3. The Queen Bee gets stronger in some way with each tome rank increase (could be damage output, attack speed, damage of proc or buff, even interesting melee skills like 'piercing strike' getting added.)
4. The Queen Bee has a chance to mimic what the druid casts while she is out (this would include [at least] both nukes and heals).
5. With each rank, a possibility of another animal type to be summoned along with the Queen Bee is added; such as Armadillo Knight at rank 2, Skunk Prince at rank 3, and Fungus Lord at rank 4. They could all just do melee or have a special qwerk/ability to them. They can all be summoned at once given the proper rank has been achieved.
I would say the percentage of the Queen Bee's appearance could be stretched to 10/20/30/40% per rank depending on what is decided on the degree of her strength and utility.
*These are just some ideas that definitely don't have to stop where I left them.*

If this druid class tome doesn't stay along the Queen Bee line, that certainly leaves the door open to possibilities.
It could even be something as simple as a tome that increases innate ft + recovery, increases damage reduction, adds an innate ds on the druid at rank 1 and increases the strength of the ds per rank, plus increases run speed per rank. Though, let's be honest, that isn't nearly as fun and interesting.

Personally, at some point, I wouldn't mind seeing a class tome that aids our heals in some way, but that has already been discussed at length in another thread.

Anywho,
Thanks for reading.
Blessings.
-Q

 

[donfolstar3]

Apiculture is one of the more underwhelming things I have ever seen on SoD or any game really. Low chance of a very short term dps boost on a spell with casting restrictions that you probably do not have mem'd most of the time? Really? Take away the low chance or short term (so Queen does not despawn) and you might have a passably decent tome, but even that is a stretch.

A tome that did something for healing would be swell. Something like:

Gushing Life: HoT overheals either roll over to the next tick, create a %rune, or vim mechanic heal people around the tank.
... I think I suggested something like this before and was called stupid.

Rejuvenating Spines: adds some healer bonus to Spineskin similar to what "Shape of the Wild" does for dps
... Nice and lazy

[Something] growth: low % chance of HoTs lasting another tick
... just stealing ideas from other MMOS now

Less shitty Form of the Earthmother: changes root to snares, less snare with each rank... also boosts the regen/ft... different model, something awesome looking
... seriously hate that root

Frog Song: your frog takes vocal lessons singing nerfed versions of the good bard songs
... if you could command your frog to switch songs and had four songs, one for each rank, this would be cool enough to distract from apiculture's general mehness

 

[purifiedbyfire7]

I suppose this thread should belong in the Suggestions and Requests category. My apologies.
I'll need it moved, please.

 

[Gargate]

The spells do work indoors, since all the ranger ones do I doubt they missed the druids.

secondly the new class tomes where not meant to shore up weaknesses or add strength but to add a little bit of fun and variety. Every class is supposed to have its ups and downs and I can't tell you how many times I've seen druids and clerics complain that all they get to do is heal.

 

[taosanterior]

Gonna read Quintle's post in more detail later, but druid dots work indoors, but only do 75 or 80% of their damage, and they don't summon bees, even though ranger's using the same spell can summon them.

 

[nanasekarina]

Frog Song: your frog takes vocal lessons singing nerfed versions of the good bard songs
... if you could command your frog to switch songs and had four songs, one for each rank, this would be cool enough to distract from apiculture's general mehness

Cooooooool. Just so cool.

 

[Grinkles]

I mean no offense to Grinkles and his ideas by some of the stuff I might write, but this Advanced Apiculture tome series is kind of a joke. I know I'm not the only one who feels that this class tome could either use some serious (and noticeable) improvement or get replaced altogether. While it is a clever and imaginitive idea (that's so Grinkles), I'm going to have to call it out on this one: it's almost a useless tome. I remember reading Grinkles' thoughts about strengthening a class's weakness through these class tomes. Not a bad desire, at all, but it just depends on how it's approached. [For some who are reading this; I'm bringing Grinkles up so much because he is basically the one who thought up the Advanced Apiculture tome (to my knowledge)].

No need to be so apologetic! I enjoy reading what anyone has to say about tome implementation regardless of whether I factor into the equation or not. I just want to point out a couple things to give some context:

• The idea came from my very first thread on tome suggestions, in which I deliberately aimed very low because I was under the (understandable) impression that some kind of unspoken moratorium had been put on any further tome implementation. The initial suggestion was deliberately underwhelming because I thought erring on the weak side would win more support from a dev who might be in the mood to put in a tome without weighing huge balance issues. (By comparison, a later DRU tome suggestion of mine later in the thread put forth the concept of Lady Sihala herself and a band of Earth Elementals appearing upon the Druid's death in order to lend a final GHOT to the group/raid! Something of a contrast to the meek ideas of that first post.)
• At the time, we hadn't seen a new tome implemented in what seemed like a year or more. I was simply eager to see anything new being put in over a placeholder. It wasn't until a few days later that I realized how underwhelming almost every single DRU I spoke with seemed to find the new tome.
• I was not consulted directly on the actual implementation of the tome; had I been poked in-game by the person who was about to implement it and had I been asked whether I thought it might need any changes to boost its usefulness or widen its utility, I surely would've given it more thought.
• My initial concept also involved the possibility of the queen bee slipping a helping of [NO DROP] honey into the Druid's inventory that would serve as rare stat food; this aspect was omitted entirely in the end product.
• I freely admit that the tome could do with some reworking without necessarily losing the "beekeeper" theme. Remember, bees for Druids are a Shards of Dalaya exclusive!
• For the record, I had nothing to do with the silly Latinate name! As if Euphorbium Mastery -- whatever that is -- weren't already bad enough for Druids to have to live with! :toot:

That aside, I'm glad to see everyone's willing to share his or her own view on the matter. If I were a dev (probably a naive way to begin any statement, as I'm sure real any dev would say!), tome implementation would be a top interest of mine. The possibilities are endless, and our server certainly isn't short on creativity. Maybe something cool can be done to remedy this not-so-exciting tome, but if nothing else, at least Druid's still have a third placeholder tome to turn to...

By the way, are Druid bees really not working indoors still? I thought the game now gave a message like "Your swarm appears smaller than usual..." when the spells were cast indoors. Was the message implemented without the spell actually being re-coded to allow for a couple bees?! :whoa:

 

[cian2]

That aside, I'm glad to see everyone's willing to share his or her own view on the matter. If I were a dev (probably a naive way to begin any statement, as I'm sure real any dev would say!), tome implementation would be a top interest of mine. The possibilities are endless, and our server certainly isn't short on creativity. Maybe something cool can be done to remedy this not-so-exciting tome, but if nothing else, at least Druid's still have a third placeholder tome to turn to...

the current decision makers, slaariel and woldaff, are both very against the idea of tomes and what they became. and frankly, i don't necessarily disagree with that statement, i just disagree with their response to it: they chose to nerf exp across the board and try to make tomes a non-factor, i would have just made them easier to fill. alas,

tomes are cool and i like the idea of being able to exp endlessly - it allows you to actually use the gear you get from raiding and see how much stronger you've become. most games don't have anything like this. the problem was really just with how strong they were - i don't know who thought 20% on codices was acceptable - much less 25% (where it started) - or that just making a giant loot table with every opus and making them super rare and super random was a good idea, but you could have seen this coming from a mile away. add in the fact that class tomes (and runic2s for that matter) were STATED to not supposed to be class changers - or rather that classes would not be "fixed" via these methods - but of course that wasn't the case at all. class tomes did, and in some cases still do, absolutely make or break some classes: wizard, necro, mage, etc. while other classes don't even get one significant tome: druid, monk, paladin. who, surprisingly, are 3 of the most underwhelming classes in the game currently. let's not even get into runics, class balance has literally swung entirely based on the changing of runics (necro, ranger, druid)

so what could be done? with the current opposition by the devs to make any meaningful changes - not much. and days turn into weeks turn into years and the gap widens, and then one day we get queen bees and critical bashes, and the shrinking masses rejoice

 

[purifiedbyfire7]

No need to be so apologetic! I enjoy reading what anyone has to say about tome implementation regardless of whether I factor into the equation or not.

I was just trying to be some-what delicate. Some people don't take criticism to their ideas very well. ;P Don't worry, I've read your other stuff, too.

In regards to the stat food being placed in the druid's inventory when the bee shows up, doesn't most stat food at high tier end up being redundant and almost useless? It sort've depends on what it is. It would have to be quite useful for me to really be excited about that.

And I will put it out there as a second opinion to what somebody else has said in response to your Sihala/earth elemental idea: I wouldn't mind having a tome that is useful when I'm actually alive. While it is a pretty interesting idea, it would be almost moot while soloing, and if the druid is the only rezzer, maybe something else (like a tome) that helped him stay alive to begin with would fair a little better.

I do like the brain storming people are putting into this. It's nice to see support in the same general direction that I'm trying to get at.

 

[Kedrin]

I was reading this thread as I'm pooping at work and thought that a cool druid class tome would be to give a small buff to the person who is under their HoTs.

You could even do something crazy and make each "buff" different for each HoT spell druids have.

Regeneration Techniques

Relic HoT could grant the person 25-50 AC a rank of tome
Ancient HoT could give a little Atk maybe 10? A rank of tome
Group HoT could give FR && CR maybe 25? A rank of tome

Not sure if you want to replace the bee tome with this or just make it a new tome all together but I for one think it would add something cool to the druid class without being too powerful. They already have the ability to buff people with all of these things so I don't feel that they are too out there.

Let me know what you guys think.

 

[purifiedbyfire7]

I was reading this thread as I'm pooping at work and thought that a cool druid class tome would be to give a small buff to the person who is under their HoTs.

You could even do something crazy and make each "buff" different for each HoT spell druids have.

Regeneration Techniques

Relic HoT could grant the person 25-50 AC a rank of tome
Ancient HoT could give a little Atk maybe 10? A rank of tome
Group HoT could give FR && CR maybe 25? A rank of tome

Not sure if you want to replace the bee tome with this or just make it a new tome all together but I for one think it would add something cool to the druid class without being too powerful. They already have the ability to buff people with all of these things so I don't feel that they are too out there.

Let me know what you guys think.

I like the direction of this idea. I'm sure with a little tweaking and determining appropriate amounts of whatever is added to each HoT, this could be a candidate for a druid tome that would be worth investing time and money into and would be useful and hopefully noticeable in its application.

 

[purifiedbyfire7]

If this druid class tome doesn't stay along the Queen Bee line, that certainly leaves the door open to possibilities.
It could even be something as simple as a tome that increases innate ft + recovery, increases damage reduction, adds an innate ds on the druid at rank 1 and increases the strength of the ds per rank, plus increases run speed per rank. Though, let's be honest, that isn't nearly as fun and interesting.

I just realized innate ds would be bad for fights that require NO ds. Scratch the innate ds idea.

 

[Otcho]

Couldn't you just have a stance to toggle damage shield or whatever. Not that I am in favor of the idea but I'd like to think you could atleast do something like that maybe.

 

[Salarus]

I was reading this thread as I'm pooping at work and thought that a cool druid class tome would be to give a small buff to the person who is under their HoTs.

You could even do something crazy and make each "buff" different for each HoT spell druids have.

Regeneration Techniques

Relic HoT could grant the person 25-50 AC a rank of tome
Ancient HoT could give a little Atk maybe 10? A rank of tome
Group HoT could give FR && CR maybe 25? A rank of tome


Let me know what you guys think.

I think this was a really good idea. The idea of adding extra affects to hots was floated awhile back but nothing really came of it.

 

[Kedrin]

I think this was a really good idea. The idea of adding extra affects to hots was floated awhile back but nothing really came of it.

Maybe it just isnt possible?

I am not sure spells with the same spell ID can do different things.

Perhaps they would have to make new spells that are really the same spells but with the buffed from tomes added benefits in them?

I know at one point they were limited to the nunber of spell IDs they could have in game. Perhaps this is one reason they couldn't do it.

 

[purifiedbyfire7]

Couldn't you just have a stance to toggle damage shield or whatever. Not that I am in favor of the idea but I'd like to think you could atleast do something like that maybe.

Seems totally doable (regardless of our opinions on the matter).

 

[purifiedbyfire7]

Maybe it just isnt possible?

I am not sure spells with the same spell ID can do different things.

Perhaps they would have to make new spells that are really the same spells but with the buffed from tomes added benefits in them?

I know at one point they were limited to the nunber of spell IDs they could have in game. Perhaps this is one reason they couldn't do it.

I suppose we're in a quandary until a Dev or someone with enough knowledge on this matter can confirm.

 

[lynnettell]

I really like the suggestions, because the tomes *are* underwhelming. Yes, I have them done up to BEES! 2 (I can never remember the real name, so that's what I call it).

The Queen Bee does hit harder than her minions. She's actually not bad DPS, and just one relic doomswarm + Queen Bee & minions can take a cyclops elder to 25% life (hey, I was bored and needed giant blood).

One thing you missed while gone, Quintle, is that when they first put BEES! in, you couldn't even cast Crawling Swarm or Relic indoors. Now, you can cast them indoors, at about 2/3 the damage as outdoors, with no bees. Soloing indoors & having to use a level 52 dot to pull was so incredibly painful....

Anyway, if it wasn't for the fact that I have the majority of decent druid tomes done and do not get opuses, there is no way I would have done these tomes. I even worked on others while finishing them, simply due to the fact that they *are* ... kind of useless. In a group, the mob is usually dead before the full effect goes in. Soloing outdoors, they're kind of neat, but the "reward" for the Queen is... a little extra DPS. Which cost me (if class tome values are correct) 160 AA's to get a 6% chance of something that does less DPS than my DS when I use 'em all.

1. The Queen Bee doesn't despawn with her brood but stays for the remainder of the fight until the mob it was sent on is dead. Maybe having a maximum of two or three Queen Bees out from the same owner on one mob.
2. The Queen Bee is innately hasted and/or hits quite a bit harder than the regular bees and/or has a special ability that activates when she's out (could be a damage spell that procs on a timer (much like the druid frog pet), or something that benefits the druid/group that fits in the song bar).
3. The Queen Bee gets stronger in some way with each tome rank increase (could be damage output, attack speed, damage of proc or buff, even interesting melee skills like 'piercing strike' getting added.)
4. The Queen Bee has a chance to mimic what the druid casts while she is out (this would include [at least] both nukes and heals).
5. With each rank, a possibility of another animal type to be summoned along with the Queen Bee is added; such as Armadillo Knight at rank 2, Skunk Prince at rank 3, and Fungus Lord at rank 4. They could all just do melee or have a special qwerk/ability to them. They can all be summoned at once given the proper rank has been achieved.
I would say the percentage of the Queen Bee's appearance could be stretched to 10/20/30/40% per rank depending on what is decided on the degree of her strength and utility.

1 - I would love it if the Queen stuck around. They did add an emote now when the Queen is spawned, maybe she could be like Crown of Storms & stick around until dead or killed? PS - it is truly sad that she's a higher con than our AA pet.

2 - She already does hit harder. I'd have to look at my logs, but I think the normal BEES! hit for 30-40ish, and she hits for 70-80ish, and does 2-3 hits for every one of theirs. Having a proc would be awesome!

3 - Yes. Anything to help out the higher ranks of this would make the time spent getting the next tomes done is great.

4 - If that is even possible, that would rock. Kind of like ranger birds can do stuff, why can't our Queen Bee?!

5 - Nah. Breaks the lore behind the actual summoning of your beeswarm. What kind of critter would willingly be sitting in a hive with a bunch of bees waiting to be called?

10/20/30/40 if any changes went in seems high to me. 5/10/15/20 would be much less painful even now.

 

[purifiedbyfire7]

2 - She already does hit harder. I'd have to look at my logs, but I think the normal BEES! hit for 30-40ish, and she hits for 70-80ish, and does 2-3 hits for every one of theirs. Having a proc would be awesome!

Hmm.. My BEES! generally hit between 60-100 per hit. When I've seen someone else's Queen Bee, it seemed that she was hitting around the same dmg per hit, maybe into the low 100's. I don't recall exactly. Not sure why such a gap between our records.

5 - Nah. Breaks the lore behind the actual summoning of your beeswarm. What kind of critter would willingly be sitting in a hive with a bunch of bees waiting to be called?

Good point. It was a suggestion I made on the fly. That's why it's good to have other people help with the balancing of suggestions/ideas.

10/20/30/40 if any changes went in seems high to me. 5/10/15/20 would be much less painful even now.

I was pretty well banking on the "depending on what is decided on the degree of her strength and utility" part. I think, in the end, the percentages of her appearance could/should be used as a tool to help balance the other improvements made to the tome.
Say, if nothing was changed about the tome except for the %'s of her showing up, I'd say 40% at rank four might not be too much to ask for (take into account the amount of time and effort goes into even getting to that point - not just the time/exp/$ involved, but also that anything above rank 2 is high-tier raid-drop only).
But, say, if a suggestion or two from the earlier list got implemented, thus making the tome and her appearance alone more powerful/useful, then something like 5/10/15/20% might seem more appropriate (mostly depending on what changes are made).

Thanks for the direct and thorough feedback, Kero.

 

[lynnettell]

Hmm.. My BEES! generally hit between 60-100 per hit. When I've seen someone else's Queen Bee, it seemed that she was hitting around the same dmg per hit, maybe into the low 100's. I don't recall exactly. Not sure why such a gap between our records.

I will be honest that I haven't turned that filter on since I first started working on the first tome. I'll check again next time I'm outdoors & using it.

I was pretty well banking on the "depending on what is decided on the degree of her strength and utility" part. I think, in the end, the percentages of her appearance could/should be used as a tool to help balance the other improvements made to the tome.
Say, if nothing was changed about the tome except for the %'s of her showing up, I'd say 40% at rank four might not be too much to ask for (take into account the amount of time and effort goes into even getting to that point - not just the time/exp/$ involved, but also that anything above rank 2 is high-tier raid-drop only).
But, say, if a suggestion or two from the earlier list got implemented, thus making the tome and her appearance alone more powerful/useful, then something like 5/10/15/20% might seem more appropriate (mostly depending on what changes are made).

Yeah, as it stands now, it's rare to see the Queen Bee after 2nd tome done. So the high percentage with no change makes sense, I was thinking if any of the above were implemented, would be too high.