Djari Sutra

robopirateninja

Staff Emeritus
This item comes from Caliph Askaril in ToT, the boss of the third tribe:

Djari Sutra
Primary Secondary
Focus Effect: Companion Health 7
Clicky Effect: Cajoling Whispers (low level charm)
WIS/INT: 12 CHA: 25 HP: 120 MANA: 160
MR: 7 CR: 7
CLR DRU SHM NEC WIZ MAG ENC

While I did get a big 'ol grin when it was linked in raidsay, I think this item comes out a little lackluster for the tier it drops from; Tower of Tarhyl's difficulty is supposed to begin at IP and progress through and beyond Thaz Tower in difficulty. The comparison bits do not include focus effects other than flowing thought.

Plane of Nightmare: Before You Wake
Journal of Stolen Dreams
Primary Secondary Range
AC: 25
Effect: Flowing Thought I
STA: 11 AGI: 11 DEX: 12 WIS/INT: 12 CHA: 23 HP: 135 Mana: 120
PR: 5 DR: 5
ALL
Compared to the Sutra:
AC: +25 STA: + 11, AGI +11 , CHA -2, HP: +15 Mana: -40 Flowing Thought: +1
MR: -7 CR: -7 FR: 0 DR: +5 PR: +5

Plane of Nightmare: Before You Wake
Ray of Light
Secondary
AC: 25
Focus Effect: Companion Strength 6
Effect: Cure Blindness (clicky 1.5s)
STR: 18 STA: 12 AGI: 12 WIS/INT: 10 HP: 140 MANA: 160
MR: 30
ALL
Compared to the Sutra:
AC: +25 STR: +12 STA: + 12, AGI +0, WIS/INT: -2 CHA -25, HP: +20 Mana: +0
MR: +23 CR: -7 FR: 0 DR: 0 PR: 0

Plane of Valor: Trial of Endurance
Shield of the Persistent
Secondary
Effect: Flowing Thought II
AC: 45 WIS/INT: 10 CHA: 10 HP: 100 MANA: 125
MR 18
CLR DRU SHM NEC WIZ MAG ENC
AC: +45, WIS/INT: -2 CHA -25, HP: -20 Mana: -35 Flowing Thought: + 2
MR: +11 CR: -7 FR: 0 DR: 0 PR: 0

Plane of Valor: Trial of Defense
Sentinel's Gavel
Primary
Skill: 1h Blunt Atk Delay: 24
Dmg: 30 AC: 10
Fire Damage: 4
Focus Effect: Healing Increment VI
Effect: Strike of Valor (Combat, Instant)
WIS: +10 INT: +10 CHA: +15 HP: +100 MANA: +170
MR: +15
CLR PAL SHD DRU SHM
WIS/INT: -2 CHA -10, HP: -20 Mana: +10
MR: +8 CR: -7 FR: 0 DR: 0 PR: 0

Caverns of Darkness
Wand of Everliving Life
Primary
Evocation +5
Effect: Aura of Balance (Worn)
DMG 25 DLY 30
STA: 10 INT: 18 CHA: 15 HP: 125 MANA: 145
MR: 10
NEC WIZ MAG ENC
STA: + 10, WIS/INT: +6 CHA -10, HP: +5 Mana: +15 Flowing Thought: +2 (Aura of Balance is two hp/mana regen per tick)
MR: +3 CR: -7 FR: 0 DR: 0 PR: 0

Inner Prison: Yashira
Irandos, Wand of Secrets
DMG 35 DLY 20
Focus Effect: Reagent Conservation 7
Effect: Rend (Combat) [~800dd]
INT: 25 CHA: 25 HP: 175 MANA: 200
MR: 20
NEC WIZ MAG ENC
WIS/INT: +13 CHA +0, HP: +55 Mana: +40
MR: +13 CR: -7 FR: 0 DR: 0 PR: 0

Stronghold of Enthann: Tansa, Chosen of Enthann
Wand of the Chosen
Primary Secondary
Focus Effect: Damage Increment 7
INT: 20 CHA: 20 HP: 150 MANA: 200
FR: 10 CR: 10
NEC WIZ MAG ENC
WIS/INT: +8 CHA -5, HP: +30 Mana: +40
MR: -10 CR: +3 FR: +10 DR: 0 PR: 0

Thazeran's Tower Kar-something and his brother. (Lower Thaz Water Boss)
Hammer of the Depths
DMG 29 DLY 20
Effect: Mind of the Deep (Clicky)
STR: 25 DEX: 10 WIS: 20 CHA: 15 HP: 155 Mana: 185
MR: 11 FR: 11 CR: 11 PR: 11 DR: 11
CLR DRU SHM
STR: +25 DEX: + 10 STA: + 12, WIS/INT: +8 CHA -10, HP: +35 Mana: +25
MR: +4 CR: +4 FR: +11 DR: +11 PR: +11

I tried to organize this list of items somewhat by difficulty in attaining them, with the Plane of Nightmare items first, and Thaz Water Boss 's hammer last. Other than the one rank of companion focus, the Ray of Light is very comparable to the Sutra, and it drops from a mob supposedly on tier with Arbiter of Air, several tiers below where Caliph should be (BYW-Tier 5, Lower TOT- Tier 8). There are a number of other items that also seem to blow the Djari Sutra out of the water in terms of hitpoints, mana and saves, that drop from mobs that are considered less difficult. Currently the only time I could see someone equipping the Djari Sutra is to summon a pet, and then bag it for something that would give them more HP/Mana/resists for a fight. I would like to see the Djari Sutra changed to be worthwhile to wear after a pet is summoned. As it is now the item has a somewhat unique flavor, and instead of making it into a copy of other items, I think that a change like:

Djari Sutra
Primary Secondary
Focus Effect: Companion Health 7
Clicky Effect: Cajoling Whispers (low level charm)
STA: 15 WIS/INT: 10 CHA: 25 HP: 180 MANA: 160
MR: 8 CR: 8 FR: 8
CLR DRU SHM NEC WIZ MAG ENC

would buff the item a little bit while allowing it to be different than the other selections at this level.
Total changes are: STA: +15 WIS/INT: -2 CHA: 0 HP: +60 Mana: 0 MR: +1 CR: +1 FR: +8 DR: 0 PR: 0

Please save discussions about whose guild did what, or how companion focuses work and other unrelated things for somewhere else. I know I'm not the best adherent of my own advice in the world, but I'd rather not see this thread end up where the other one did and we have the whole of chillville to fill up with bullshit.
 

Ikaa|LoveYums

Staff Emeritus
Since this is the second time around for this thread, consider this a final warning to stay on topic.

Trolling, e-peen waving, or turning it into another "WHY IS GUILD XYZ DOWN ON THIS ITEM" will earn you a forum ban and jailtime.
 

Manluas

Dalayan Elder
The only little thing I have to remark is that it is kinda hard to compare all those items with each other because some are restricted to a single slot, others (Djari Sutra for example) can be used in 2 slots, one even in 3 which also comes into play when determining how good an item should be.

That aside it is quite hard to compare a general caster item (Djari Sutra) to archetypespecific items (Sentinel's Gravel, Wand of the Chosen) because you have to consider a lot more of things for the rebalance. I might be mistaken here but from what I have seen so far priest items tend to have a tad less mana then int caster items, that should as well be taken into consideration.

As a final note I'd almost say that I for myself think that Djari Sutra is quite where it should be for the mob that drops it. If anything the other items might be a tad too good (Shield of the Persistent for example) but I'm not 100% sure on this since I haven't seen PoN.


I wouldn't mind seeing HP brought up a bit and maybe even a bit more resists but I still think that Djari Sutra is mostly where it should be.
 

brasileira

Dalayan Adventurer
Havent you started another topic?

The item is fine, just because you can swap the cloack for the companion strenght, doenst mean that it have the max mana/hp/stats.

So if that would be lets give more mana / hp / stats to any item that doesnt have heal inc, dmg, inc, because you can just swap it.

Doesnt make sense at all. The item is fine!
 

Manguadi

Dalayan Beginner
brasileira said:
Havent you started another topic?

The item is fine, just because you can swap the cloack for the companion strenght, doenst mean that it have the max mana/hp/stats.

So if that would be lets give more mana / hp / stats to any item that doesnt have heal inc, dmg, inc, because you can just swap it.

Doesnt make sense at all. The item is fine!

In the last thread the argument went like this:

proponent of not changing: this item doesn't have great stats, but it has an amazing focus effect which balances it
proponent of changing: this focus effect does not balance the item because it doesn't have to be equipped to be used

Right now this item is in-between the previous tier or two and its current tier. This means that you either use the item because you haven't gotten an upgrade for this slot yet (because it is clearly the worst of the upgrades), or just because of the focus effect. Items in the same slot in a single tier should be filling different stat holes and be somewhat better for one class than another. They should be distinguishable, but close to equal.

Companion Strength VII does not make an item any better to wear than another, and this much should be obvious. Then if you agree that the stats are sub-par, you should support the kind of changes that have been suggested.
 

Nwaij

Dalayan Pious Diety
1) This item is still nice for pet classes due to its focus effect
2) Almost every raidzone has the occasional odd loot wich isnt that great. Thats how tings are. Will you try to get them all changed now?
 

brasileira

Dalayan Adventurer
Manguadi said:
Companion Strength VII does not make an item any better to wear than another, and this much should be obvious.
I dont agree.

Read my post. Is the same thing with ANY increment.

Duration Increment, Healing, Dmg, etc. they all can be "swaped" to a better item.

Is the same thing i get a glove that have heal inc 7 with bad stats, and a glove with pretty good status on lower tier. So i just ask to pump the stats on the glove with heal inc?

Still this item is CLR DRU SHM NEC WIZ MAG ENC useable and can be placed in 2 slots, so its fine in my opinion.
 

robopirateninja

Staff Emeritus
brasileira said:
Read my post. Is the same thing with ANY increment.

Duration Increment, Healing, Dmg, etc. they all can be "swaped" to a better item.

You are 100% wrong.
You are 80% wrong. Duration increment can be swapped like companion focus.
 

Trust And Fall

Dalayan Beginner
Every person who has said this item is fine as is has said that its fine as is because it can be swapped out. Even Nwaij said that, though he also made the argument that every zone has one or two odd pieces that aren't that great, he still said it.

If this is the case, why not just take all the stats off the item? 0 hp, 0 mana, 0 every thing. Just leave Comp Health 7.

I don't understand how people fail to see the logic in this argument.

I don't care, I'll replace the item soon anyways. I'm sure people who will get it in the future would like it to be on par stat wise with the difficult it takes to obtain it versus other items that can be obtained more easily.
 

Manguadi

Dalayan Beginner
Nwaij said:
2) Almost every raidzone has the occasional odd loot wich isnt that great. Thats how tings are. Will you try to get them all changed now?

Yes, of course! We always want to make our game better.
 

Riesen

Dalayan Beginner
raid loot like the crumbling pebble with ravenward are things that should be put in bags, and brought out to use / cast.

I still say this needs to be re-evaluated. I don't have it, and will probably never have it. I just feel shooting down requests in a forum of discussion without a legitimate rebuttal, is just counter productive.

when you make one item the obvious choice at any tier, you sterilize the game, because anyone with a brain tries immensely to get that item. Allowing alternatives and making them feasible to use at their tier just makes more sense, and seems to remove the stale points of games like SoD. Hopefully, that's a goal everyone strives for.

I'm not saying this needs a huge boost, but if there are legitimate comparisons to items of that tier, and it doesn't quite size up as well, it's a waste of a raid mob drop, and should be removed or replaced, or something.
 

Manluas

Dalayan Elder
Oh and for those that are not that familiar with the makeup of certain raid zones, here the pre-work required for two of the items (assuming you have legitimate access to all the mobs that drop said items as a raid/guild):


Irandos, Wand of Secrets: Yashira in Inner Prison drops it. To gain access you have to clear all of Outer Prison (Outer Prison needs you to kill GotSS and get the key for it as well). Effort to get it: Huge.

Wand of the Chosen: Tansa in Stronghold of Enthann (Valor b) drops it. To gain access you have to clear all of Valor A (4 trials and 2 additional mobs IIRC). Effort to get it: Moderate to huge.

Djari Sutra: Caliph Askaril in Tower of Tarhyl drops it. To get to him you need a wizard that can port to ToT and need to kill Archfiend Ghanherizoc as well as High Warden Ansaag. Both fights are easily below IP and Valor B difficulty. Then you have to clear the wing Askaril is in and kill him (I'd say he's ~IP difficulty, maybe even a tad easier but unsure on this). Effort to get it: Low to moderate.


It might be just my personal opinion but I think if you compare items you also should take into consideration how easy they are to get. I picked those that trump Djari Sutra stat-wise and are with no doubt better when it comes down to the Focus Effects but they're also harder to get. While Caliph might be as hard as Tansa and Yashira (This is somewhat subjective, they're close together with Tansa being the hardest and Askaril the easiest IMO) the effort to get to him is definitely not as high. All in all I think Djari Sutra should be considerable below either of those and still is. As said before I am not absolutely opposed to some minor tweaks but it should mostly stay at its current state.
 

Llanoldar Lluindar

Dalayan Beginner
Manluas said:
A lot of stuff about prerequisites.

You can't really argue the difficulty of an encounter by discussing its prerequisites this way, because you get loot from the prerequisites too. Yeah, you need to get keyed for IP and ValorB, but every step along those two paths gets you loot and upgrades for your guild. The problem with this argument is only magnified when the prerequisites stretch across multiple tiers the way GotSS-->OP-->IP and ValorA-->ValorB do.
 
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