Diversify Some Class roles! (long)

[muurian]

This is an extension of this post :
http://www.wintersroar.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1300&start=40

This post is focused on theend game (60+) abilities but could well be extended from level 1 and up

In the end game, every class can do DPS. Some better than others, but even a cleric can nuke decently. However, most classes cannot do anything to aid the efficiency of a group other than providing as much DPS as possible. The amount of DPS any class adds is marginal to the increase in efficiency created by Slowing, Haste Buffs, Mana Regen, and CC. I would really like to see these functions spread to different classes, albeit in less effective measures.

Example :
Slower.
1) Shaman
2) Enc
3) Beastlord/Bard

Wouldnt it be killer to add a couple more? Such as :

2) Enc/!Druid!
3) Beastlord/Bard/!Wizard!/!Ranger!

They never take the place of the big boys above, but in their absence they can help fill a role. And seriously, slow on a wizard? If he wizard is getting hit in the first place, they're not soloing very well. Rangers slowing puts them in an uncomfortable aggro position, but atleast they can cover that need. And giving a slow to Druids dramatically opens up grouping opprotunities, as it single handedly allows them to maintain a MT's health much like a shaman can.

Haste
1) Enchanter
2) Shaman/ Bard
3) Beast

This one is even more lobsided. I would suggest this :

3) Beast/!Mage!/!Cleric!/!Paladin!

Mages have a haste summon but who doesnt have a haste item by the time they can summon it? Clerics and Paladins with a decent haste would allow them to contribute to the group, even as a single target only. Consider that if the above changes go through, a cleric/druid team could well function in place of a shaman/enc, just not as well.

Next example:
Mana Regen
1) Enchanter
2) Bard
3) Beast

Mana regen is so completely crucial to any group its crazy there arent more classes that can help here. Magicians and Necros can aid in mana transfer but not regen. This is different because the mage or necro still have to sacrifice casting their other spells while transfering mana.

3) Beast, Druid, Mage

I think all of the druid buffs should add a Mana regen while taking another HP hit. This creates a decision in the end game between Aego or Cabbage/Glades. A caster heavy Xp group would take Glades while a raid/melee heavy will still take Aego for max survivability. Mages, on the other hand, should either get a self mana buff ala Harvest or maybe a long recast single target mana buff. Mod rods are a transfer spell that has no opposing mana regen spell to make them viable in groups.

CC
1) Enc
2) Bard
3) Nec/All classes with good roots.

Bards are second because they have to basically focus on mezzing exclusively, and have a max of about 2 targets. Root CC is available to many classes and functions well given enough space. (Incoming stolen idea) Its too good. Giving rogues a limited ability to CC would be fantastic. Finally, something other to do than press auto attack, backstab, and evade. I dont care if its totally stolen from some other game, its brilliant. Turn Intimidate into a MEZ! Refresh = Duration so only one mob can be locked down by a rogue.

Healer
1) Cleric
2) Shaman
3) Druid
4) Paladin, Beast, Necro

I would love to see Necromancer bumped up to Druid level. The necro HoTs are sufficient but I believe his instants could be increased given that they are 1 to 1 for his own life. A necromancer full devoted to healing would not be able to nuke or DoT, and is thus sacrificing extra DPS for extra healing not to mention putting themself in a position of constantly low health.

Now here comes the key part of this post. Balancing these abilities is simple through use of stacking. If Wiz has designed encounters with only the best ability in mind, then dont let the others stack. Dont let a mage mana buff stack with KEI. Dont let a wizard slow debuff overwrite Turgurs. It maintains the balance of every raid encounter while helping groups everywhere. Is any shaman going to care that druids can slow? If the shaman is in the group, he is slowing. Its that simple. Same for all of the above.

Here is a quick class breakdown that will contain many mistakes because im doing it quickly :

Wizard
- Amazing burst DPS
- Decent constant DPS
- Root CC, Ports, !Slow!

Mage
- Good burst DPS
- Good constant DPS
- Summons, CoH, !Self or Single target Mana Regen!, Resist Debuff
- !haste!

Necro
- Good constant DPS
- !Secondary Healer!, limited CC, limited Debuffs, mana transfer, limited charm, limited rez.

Enchanter
- best CC
- best mana regen
- best haste buffs
- best illusions (hah)
- best aggro management
- worst at tanking and trying to be two things at once.
- Charming class

Shaman
- best slow
- best stat buffs
- secondary healer that CAN main heal
- great mana self mana regen
- good constant DPS

Cleric
- best heals
- best hp/ac buffs
- !Haste!
- Rez
- Limited root CC

Druid
- good burst DPS, decent constant
- Secondary healer, CAN be main
- !Slow!
- Limited mana regen/hp buff
- Root CC

Beastlord
- good constant DPS
- back up healer
- Slow
- Decent buffs

Ranger
- great constant DPS
- hopefully new archery
- !Slow!
- Root CC

Paladin
- great for MTing (spell based aggro)
- Heals, Rez
- Decent buffs
- !Haste!

SK
- Good constant DPS
- FD puller
- Debuffs
- Good MTing (spell based)

Monk
- Great constant DPS
- best FD puller
- Special abilities on their other attacks are useful and need to get used more!! (Eagle strike should chance to interupt all casters even if immune to stun)

Rogue
- Best constant DPS (positional)
- hide/sneak
- !Limited Mez!

Warrior
- good constant DPS
- best tank (hps and melee based aggro, Taunt)

Bard
- Second best everything, basically
- Charming class
- Good pulling class !


And there you have it folks. Every class retains their specialities while other classes gain the ability to fill in. The result : Raids are balanced the same and more groups can function with a mishmash of classes. The perfect group, while still the best, is not so by such a large margin. And no class gains such abilities to make it overpowered in a solo situation.

 

[Chamelion]

This is an extension of this post :
http://www.wintersroar.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1300&start=40





Example :
Slower.
1) Shaman
2) Enc
3) Beastlord/Bard

Wouldnt it be killer to add a couple more? Such as :

2) Enc/!Druid!
3) Beastlord/Bard/!Wizard!/!Ranger!



(((Druids dots are supposed to be getting a slow. If rangers get the same dots just at higher levels, then their dots as well will have slows. Wizards on the other hand should not get slow. They already get a snare, harvest mana, major nukes, familiars and pets.)))

Haste
1) Enchanter
2) Shaman/ Bard
3) Beast

This one is even more lobsided. I would suggest this :

3) Beast/!Mage!/!Cleric!/!Paladin!

Mages have a haste summon but who doesnt have a haste item by the time they can summon it? Clerics and Paladins with a decent haste would allow them to contribute to the group, even as a single target only. Consider that if the above changes go through, a cleric/druid team could well function in place of a shaman/enc, just not as well.

((I can't see how classes of healing and protections would gain the offense of hasting groups. I thought paladins shilalalala spell was a haste anyway.))


Next example:
Mana Regen
1) Enchanter
2) Bard
3) Beast

Mana regen is so completely crucial to any group its crazy there arent more classes that can help here. Magicians and Necros can aid in mana transfer but not regen. This is different because the mage or necro still have to sacrifice casting their other spells while transfering mana.

3) Beast, Druid, Mage

I think all of the druid buffs should add a Mana regen while taking another HP hit. This creates a decision in the end game between Aego or Cabbage/Glades. A caster heavy Xp group would take Glades while a raid/melee heavy will still take Aego for max survivability. Mages, on the other hand, should either get a self mana buff ala Harvest or maybe a long recast single target mana buff. Mod rods are a transfer spell that has no opposing mana regen spell to make them viable in groups.

((Mages have staffs with flowing thought on them. which stacks with any other flowing thought items. ))


CC
1) Enc
2) Bard
3) Nec/All classes with good roots.

Bards are second because they have to basically focus on mezzing exclusively, and have a max of about 2 targets. Root CC is available to many classes and functions well given enough space. (Incoming stolen idea) Its too good. Giving rogues a limited ability to CC would be fantastic. Finally, something other to do than press auto attack, backstab, and evade. I dont care if its totally stolen from some other game, its brilliant. Turn Intimidate into a MEZ! Refresh = Duration so only one mob can be locked down by a rogue.


((I'm guessing you've never played an enchanter. It is hard enough being an enchanter in a group with bards and other enchanters mezzing. Mezzes will not overwrite. There are items in game that allow non casters to root. That is the only CC they should ever get. It's difficult as is to not have a group die cause to many people want to CC instead of doing their respective class responsibities.))






And there you have it folks. Every class retains their specialities while other classes gain the ability to fill in. The result : Raids are balanced the same and more groups can function with a mishmash of classes. The perfect group, while still the best, is not so by such a large margin. And no class gains such abilities to make it overpowered in a solo situation.

One thing your not looking at. I like many others either cannot or do not play two characters at once. That is one option for people to take if they are lacking in an ability. These suggestions imho would drive groups more apart than anything. Speaking from an enchanters point of view, if these other classes were to get these abilities, you would drop the need for the other classes. DAoC did something similar to this where alot of the classes received overlapping abilities. It causes some classes to be almost exiled from groups. if you have two classes with minor abilities, together they could make up for the single class. So they still retained their normal plus together made up a 3rd. So there was no point in inviteing the 3rd at all.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[muurian]

Fair enough, but rather than be general, which classes in particular do you speak of? I dont think an enchanter will ever be denied in a group in favor of something else. And even if it did, so what? Try being an SK. Or a beastlord.

Do these changes help smaller groups? YES! Smaller groups are the main form of leveling from 1-50. Cant go wrong with that.

Remember that the scale I used above is representative of that spell lines relative effectiveness. The beauty of this system, in comparison to Daoc, is that there still ARE bests in each category.

Example (at 60) :

Shaman slow - 50
Enc slow - 45
Beast slow - 40 (50% at 65!)
Druid slow - 35
ranger/wiz - 30

How does anyone get booted in in this scenario? The better abilities are still better. As an enchanter, you are already the best at basically all aspects of increasing a groups efficiency and therefor its xp rate. How are you threatened if other classes do one aspect of your job? And even then, you are still better at your own specialties.

 

[zodium]

If a wizard could slow half as well as a shaman I wouldn't ever bother inviting a shaman or a bard, I'd just get another wizard.

Etc etc. It's a bad idea.

 

[Trig]

those are some really bad ideas

 

[muurian]

Once again, general responses. Please be specific Trig.

I am willing to agree a wizard with 30% slow at 60 is a bit much. So cancel that out. But for arguments sake:

Melwin, in exactly what scenario would you not invite a shaman? What if you didnt have clerics or druids? Do you still pick the wizard? What about if you dont have any other mana regen classes? Does the bard still lose? Your perception is skewed because you always have a warrior and a cleric at the very least. What if Wizard slow cost him 500mana? Would it still be worth it to get a wizard, who cannnot tank potential aggro for beans, to be a slower over a Shaman, Beastlord, Enc, Bard or even !Druid!, who all have better slows? Sure, if your group is always armed with a cleric and warrior you might choose that. Thus the point of diversifying roles.

The more you think about it, the more its clear that all those ideas do is allow for many more combinations of characters to create effective groups.

Why on earth would you just get another wizard? For momentary burst DPS? Does the group have an enchanter? the Blades buffs dont stack. the pets do, perhaps. Vero vs Muurian in a PoA group, Vero outdamages Muur by about 4x per fight unless Muurian unloads his mana bar. Your example isnt as obvious as you make it out to be.

And like I said, the "perfect group" still remains. There are potentially more variations of it with the above changes in mind.

 

[WazeekWazoo]

The classes are balanced very well now. IMO. The only problem happened when EQ decided to throw a kink in the plan and add a class. That's why beastlords are behind a little bit (but they are close to being balanced). Leave everything alone... As more people become beastlords and respond to their concerns, things will balance out eventually.

 

[Fjodor]

Once again, general responses. Please be specific Trig.

I am willing to agree a wizard with 30% slow at 60 is a bit much. So cancel that out. But for arguments sake:

Melwin, in exactly what scenario would you not invite a shaman? What if you didnt have clerics or druids? Do you still pick the wizard? What about if you dont have any other mana regen classes? Does the bard still lose? Your perception is skewed because you always have a warrior and a cleric at the very least. What if Wizard slow cost him 500mana? Would it still be worth it to get a wizard, who cannnot tank potential aggro for beans, to be a slower over a Shaman, Beastlord, Enc, Bard or even !Druid!, who all have better slows? Sure, if your group is always armed with a cleric and warrior you might choose that. Thus the point of diversifying roles.

The more you think about it, the more its clear that all those ideas do is allow for many more combinations of characters to create effective groups.

Why on earth would you just get another wizard? For momentary burst DPS? Does the group have an enchanter? the Blades buffs dont stack. the pets do, perhaps. Vero vs Muurian in a PoA group, Vero outdamages Muur by about 4x per fight unless Muurian unloads his mana bar. Your example isnt as obvious as you make it out to be.

And like I said, the "perfect group" still remains. There are potentially more variations of it with the above changes in mind.

NOONE (basicly) can take aggro from Coltaine.
If he had a wiz that could slow then the shammy (with suck DPS) would be osolete (spelling), he would take 2 wizards (with sick DPS)

 

[Chamelion]

Fair enough, but rather than be general, which classes in particular do you speak of? I dont think an enchanter will ever be denied in a group in favor of something else. And even if it did, so what? Try being an SK. Or a beastlord.


If you look in the quote in my previous message you will see comments in (( )) 's I failed to get them out of the quote when i posted it, but it shows the classes in particular.

 

[zodium]

Threads like these kill my will to reply to player suggestions faster than Rosie O'Donell gain weight.

 

[xavori]

Threads like these kill my will to reply to player suggestions faster than Rosie O'Donell gain weight.

Why is that Mel? :sadf:


In my opinion, Muurian, your basic idea is good, making many classes useful, instead of people trying to make up the "perfect" group. The problem is, as they said , there are some things that arent really needed/unbalanced, I will read if fully again and search for those things and then post about it later.

Note: Fjodor, how's that "No one can take aggro from Coltaine"? His DPS are that high? :brow:

 

[Podge]

Terrible

I have to agree with Trig and Mewin here. Each class has a role in a group, and overlapping doesn't serve to do anything but make some classes obsolete.

Wizard slowing? They already contribute DPS to a group. Very, very high DPS. Every group needs DPS, but if you can get a slower on top of that DPS, what the hell would you ever need a dedicated slower for? In high end groups, aggro is very rarely a problem, since in your average fight it is relatively easy to aggro control to one person, regardless of that persons class.

Necro healing like a druid? Wow, that would be truely lame, since heals are the one thing that really set druid desireability in groups. Druid contribute some DPS, and limited CC, but they really shine as a healer. So much so that I can only think of a few grouping situations when a druid could not completely replace a cleric, as long as he is dedicated only to heals and has some form of consistant mana regen. Same goes for mana regen and CC. Lots of time you don't need these, but when you do, you need an enchanter. Thats it. That is how it should be. You should never, ever be able to say "Hey, we have two rogues and a magician, we don't really need that enchanter".

By the way, druid swarm dots do have a slow component to them. This is unique to WR, and although they are small (25% on the relic), they exist.

I understand your intentions, and I admire them, but the problem is that you would simply be overpowering certain classes. Some classes need to be needed since they offer something to a group. Diversification, in this sense, only serves to eliminate the desire for certain classes. I mihgt be biased, since I main one of the classes you would be completely screwing over with a change like this, but I think a lot of people agree that if you want a certain something for a group, you *should* look for a certain class.

 

[muurian]

NOONE (basicly) can take aggro from Coltaine.
If he had a wiz that could slow then the shammy (with suck DPS) would be osolete (spelling), he would take 2 wizards (with sick DPS)

Agreed. Which is why Melwin's view is skewed to the classes he has available to him.


What classes become obsolete?

A wizard contributes much lower DPS to an xp group than a mage, for instance, unless there is much mana regen. That wizard can slow, even 20&, is already in the game. I dont see any groups using Protective Familiar as their main slow. Thus, I am sure the 50& version found on the healing and perma FM shaman is still very attractive. As you can see and have said, the problem is that a group with an Enchanter or Shaman is instantly much more efficient than another group without those classes.

None of these changes effect any raid at all, they only allow for more class combinations to form effective groups. Nothing a character does best is removed from them or even challenged.

The so-called "lots of times when you dont need an enchanter" Yes, but would you ever turn one down? No. Would you turn down other possible combinations? In a flash.

A necro healing like a druid in HOT fashion already existed on Live. it has since been bumped down on WR. As for Druids with slow on their dots, I recognized this but an effective slow of 25% on a relic spell is like saying all Enchanters have DC.

Chamelion : You still provide the best version of ALL of your services in one class. I dont see how you will be discriminated against? If you are doing the jobs of two rogues and magician, guess what they're doing? Throwing everything they can at the mob, which they do best.

Here is one particular quote

You should never, ever be able to say "Hey, we have two rogues and a magician, we don't really need that enchanter".

Two rogues and a magician to half ass fill the role of an enchanter? Whats so wrong with that? Isnt that the same idea as a shaman/druid filling the role of a cleric? If an enchanter is around, he'll still join the group, give the rogues best haste, mage best regen, and already be a much more superior CCer. He'll relieve the rogues and mage of their side duties so they can perform what they do best : DPS. Volia group still funtions better. The changes I described still allow primary classes to reprise their roles, it just doesnt penalize groups that DONT have them!

Obviously, the list I made is subject to critique and change, and remember that this WR where class availability is moot as best. No class is undermined or threatened, and other classes still maintain their potential. So what if Necro can heal like druids? Another class to make up a healing team. Do we really need another high end raid guild with a 1/5 a roster of clerics?*

* whole other issue but you get my point.

 

[Fjodor]

Threads like these kill my will to reply to player suggestions faster than Rosie O'Donell gain weight.

Why is that Mel? :sadf:


In my opinion, Muurian, your basic idea is good, making many classes useful, instead of people trying to make up the "perfect" group. The problem is, as they said , there are some things that arent really needed/unbalanced, I will read if fully again and search for those things and then post about it later.

Note: Fjodor, how's that "No one can take aggro from Coltaine"? His DPS are that high? :brow:

It's not his DPS, he has weapons that give him insane aggro + his taunt is kinda nice

 

[Jaril Bloodyblade]

But if you look at the original design of EQ Live, the way classes work.. everyone has a primary function and a secondary function... some even have a third and fourth.

The whole thing is, everything does have someone that can do it really good and someone that can do it almost as good..

The best hasters are Enchanters hands down, while bards are still very capable in it and shamans as well. There is no need for others to have it..

The best healing class in the game is most definatly a cleric, but other classes such as shaman and druid can also take up that role, yet not to the full ability a cleric can.

The best slower in the game is an enchanter, however again.. shamans are very capable in that aspect as well. While bards are even capable of slows and other professions also have a slow of some form somewhere..

The best haste class in the game (for running haste) is bard, most definatly. However druids are also very capable in that aspect with SoW and the other spells.. And Shaman, Beast Lord, Ranger.. also have the ability to use the basic SoW spell.

Classes have their roles. The way things work now, it is completely balanced enough to actually make a big difference between getting a wizard for the group and getting an enchanter for the group.. Everything is situational, sometimes in groups that have slows, CC, haste.. and everything like that covered, there is no real need for an enchanter who could maybe do those things just a bit better.. however there might be a gap somewhere else in the team, like DPS for example.. at that point, get a wizard.. or say they lack buffs for the group yet have average or above average capabilities everywhere else.. get a shaman.. or trade up for a cleric for less buffs but increased healing power.

The classes right now are balanced pretty well, the only things they really need to look at is the DPS difference between the different melee classes. Some classes like rogues and monks, need to have their damage tweaked up slightly to give a good enough advantage to having a rogue in the group over a warrior. I mean think about it, if a warrior could come anywhere close to my DPS... but could also tank, taunt, and survive in more extreme situations, then what would be the point in getting a rogue, other then as a secondary tank? Rogue DPS should stay far ahead of warrior to give an actual advantage of having them in a group.. until level 40 for a rogue when they can get crippling style and improve their backstab damage, they are too close to warriors and other melee in damage to really see a major difference. Example.. when I was 35; a 32 warrior with similar costing equipment.. could do higher DPS then me, however also had 200-300 more AC, twice if not more of my health, and the ability to keep the aggro off of the healers and casters.. The 31 warrior in question also was dual logging a 31 shaman.. and could outdamage my entire group when we didn't cooperate and all gang up on the mob exactly when the battle started, we lost most of the kills that evening.

Casters and Priests are fairly balanced in their role in a group.. the only ones so far that really need looking at are the melee and hybrid classes. The only real reason to pick a rogue over a bard is the extra damage behind the enemy.. IE Backstab.. yet reading this site in development areas a 65 bard is capable of taking an AA to be able to have 225 backstab skill.. which far surpasses a level 50 rogue, yet they can also have haste songs, and other songs to vastly improve their damage output and support skills, as well as damage healing and mitigation.. Just saying to look at all classes at all levels, not just say... Oh yea, Rogue is wonderful DPS once they get backbiting.. At least until bard gets to 65 and trains their backstab AAs. Or similar situations..

 

[Jaril Bloodyblade]

Sorry, ment shamans are the best slowers, not enchanters.. it's the other way around. Was tired

 

[zodium]

Threads like these kill my will to reply to player suggestions faster than Rosie O'Donell gain weight.

Why is that Mel? :sadf:


In my opinion, Muurian, your basic idea is good, making many classes useful, instead of people trying to make up the "perfect" group. The problem is, as they said , there are some things that arent really needed/unbalanced, I will read if fully again and search for those things and then post about it later.

Note: Fjodor, how's that "No one can take aggro from Coltaine"? His DPS are that high? :brow:

Because overlapping classes is a really fucking stupid idea that inevitably leads to either no use of the overlapping abilities or obsoletion of the primary classes.

 

[Chamelion]

.

A wizard contributes much lower DPS to an xp group than a mage, for instance, unless there is much mana regen. .

Disagree with you on that fact. Wiz will outdamage a mage.

None of these changes effect any raid at all, they only allow for more class combinations to form effective groups. .

Wiz has already stated that slow has a cap here on WR. it's like 50 or 60%. No other classes need it. You've also overlooked that Necros have slow too for undead mobs.

The so-called "lots of times when you dont need an enchanter" Yes, but would you ever turn one down? No. Would you turn down other possible combinations? In a flash..

on high end mobs you need DPS. If two classes can fill the role of enchanter even halfway and still give their full DPS, then YES any group with their right mind would take the DPS and abilites. alot of mobs are immune to mez with root being the only form of CC.

Chamelion : You still provide the best version of ALL of your services in one class. I dont see how you will be discriminated against? If you are doing the jobs of two rogues and magician, guess what they're doing? Throwing everything they can at the mob, which they do best...

See the statement above about mez being useless at times, slow being just barely above if that a Bst. And it's not unless an enchanter has 61 plsu that they actually have a decent DD.

Here is one particular quote

You should never, ever be able to say "Hey, we have two rogues and a magician, we don't really need that enchanter".

and yet with the propsed changes you mention, there would be instances of this.

Two rogues and a magician to half ass fill the role of an enchanter? Whats so wrong with that? Isnt that the same idea as a shaman/druid filling the role of a cleric? If an enchanter is around, he'll still join the group, give the rogues best haste, mage best regen, and already be a much more superior CCer. He'll relieve the rogues and mage of their side duties so they can perform what they do best : DPS. Volia group still funtions better. The changes I described still allow primary classes to reprise their roles, it just doesnt penalize groups that DONT have them!

again, at times mez is useless and root being only form of CC which almost every casters class has. Shamans and druids can fill the role of cleric as a healer.. however that is not what they are intended as. Shamans are buffers / healers. Druids DPS/ transportation/ healers. The point is classes are unique for a reason. start spreading their abilites more than what they already are will cause game unbalancing. You speak of grouping but with the abilites your talking about, you allowing more classes ,such as necro or druid to solo even better than as it stands. There would be less need of a full group and more small groups excluding people.

So what if Necro can heal like druids? Another class to make up a healing team. Do we really need another high end raid guild with a 1/5 a roster of clerics?*

* whole other issue but you get my point.

No INT caster class should have healing abilities on par with a druid or any WIS based class. The only way necros can heal at present is by giving up their life force or at high ends using the group vampiric leech. And as to your comment of needing another high end raid guild with 1/5 rostersof clerics. This isn't live, Hps totals are NOT the same and some of the mobs require six plus clerics doing a chain CH rotation to keep the main tank alive. The number is needed because your clerics will run out of mana. Don't get me wrong guy, it's good to always hear about suggestions, but i have to disagree with what you propose. The devs have looked long and hard and make changes to classes as they see it needs it. Druids will be getting a stamina regen exclusive to their class once the new styles are put in. They already received slows to their DoTs. Wizards familairs are customized to WR. Mages have FT items.

 

[Wiz]

Mages do have better sustained DPS, because of their pet DPS, after spear/sword were nerfed.

 

[muurian]

Because overlapping classes is a really fucking stupid idea that inevitably leads to either no use of the overlapping abilities or obsoletion of the primary classes.

People WILL use overlapping abilities when they dont have access to other classes! Thus is the plight of WR. Not everyone has an entire guild from which to draw their groups.

Some numbers.
The following spells are all present in WR

(Slows at 60)
Shaman - 50%
Enchanter - 45%
Beast - 40%
Druid - 25% (on insect dots from level 49+)
Wizard - 20% (Protective Familiar)
Bard - 20%

Well I'll be damned. They're already in the game!! I suppose Wiz had similar ideas when he played with some class spell lines. Result ; my case is closed on Slowers. There are choices.

(Haste at 60)
Enchanter - 75%
Bard - 30%
Shaman - 28%
Beast - 22%

If Clerics and Paladins could single target haste for 28%/22%, it would help every group they're in other than ones with an enchanter. I could even see Clerics with a single target, long recast 40% haste that they could keep on one target, like a Boon of Garou. It'll help any group they're in without an enchanter, and then only one target.

(Mana Regen)
Enchanter - 14/tick
Beast - 7/tick
Druid - 6/stick
(these numbers may be wrong but they are relative, so whatever KEI is its double purity)

Mages, with a mana regen buff that was 7/mp tick but could NOT stack with KEI would be an excellent boon to any group without an enchanter. An enchanter/cleric can buff in two spells what it would take a beast/druid/cleric to buff in 4.

(CC at 60)
Enc - Rapture (5 ticks, harder to resist, 210 mana)
Waking Sleep (5 ticks, 140 mana)
Fetter (Root, 30 ticks, 75 mana)
Bard - Lullaby of Shadows (Ancient, 4 ticks, 3sec cast)
Necro - Screaming Terror (4ticks, lvl 54 cap)
Wizard - Fetter (root, 30 ticks, 75mana)

Root CC is vulnerable to summoning mobs and casters. I root CC in every group I am in, even those with enchanters. It has its strengths and weaknesses. That rogues could mez ONE target with risk just allows root CCing to work in more situations, such as those with summoning or casting mobs. A fully dedicated enchanter is still superior in EVERY way.

(Heals at 60)
Cleric - CH.. blah blah.
Shaman - Torpor.. blah blah.
Druid - Close Wounds - 1250hp for 295 mana, 5 secs
Chloroblast - 408hp for 145 mana, 3 secs.
Soothing - 1090hp for 350 mana, 2secs
Necromancer - Shadowbond - 125hp per tick, 4 ticks, -500hp to Nec
Corporal Empathy - 151hp, 200mana, -151hp to Nec

Necromancer heals are great because the necromancer needs the HP pool to actually heal his target without killing himself. Lifetap Bonds do not stack with the Shadowbond recourse thus making it very difficult to do. Zevfeers Theft has a much smaller range and lower heal amount. I dont think increasing a necro's ability to heal would infringe on an instant healing Druid, and it would just help satisfy a secondary or even double primary healing role.

To be honest, having looked into these numbers, I am surprised how much of my intentions are already in the game and just unknown to me. Perhaps others as well. I am hoping some of this will get people to open up new group ideas. But the fact that remains that too many core group abilities are shared by very few classes. Some lower ended redundancy just fascilitates grouping on WR so that we're not constantly opting out for the warrior, cleric, shaman, enc, DPS, swing man group.