Defensive Mods Vs AC/HP's

Kharras

Dalayan Adventurer
It probably has been discussed in the past, but Im just looking for fresh facts or opinions.
How beneficial are defensive mods for tanks, and how much HP/AC are you willing to sacrifice for such mods? For example....look at the Dmap Ring of Warding 10AC 80HP +5 all saves +15 Parry mod. How much AC/HP do you think the +15 Parry is worth? It would be interesting if someone had some parser info on stuff like this because for example, I know i have enough defensive mod items in the bank to max out most defensive skills, but I would lose like 300 hp and 40AC or so in the process. Any ideas on the subject?
 
I've always wondered this myself, I would think that those defensive mods would help greatly... but...Really need a parse of some time to figure outjust by how much.

I suppose the harder a mob hits the greater impact the defensive mods would make. ( dodge/parrying a 100 dmg hit vs a 1k+ hit.. even a 1% increase could make a big difference vs a Raid mob)
 
I'm curious what the hell kind of gear you have banked that allows you to max overcap parry, dodge, AND riposte.

On bosses, I'd say the chance to completely mitigate hits is worth quite a bit. In my opinion +25 to all three is worth losing 300 hp and 40 ac. My logic is based on the fact that when a tank dies, it's rarely caused by the healers being oom. I'm not sure what percent +25 to a skill calculates to, but I do know that even a small percent chance to completely mitigate the hit that would otherwise kill me is pretty appealing.
 
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A simply phrased question that has a very complex answer.

To get into which is better, you first need to ask yourself the following. Do you want to avoid more hits or mitigate more total damage? In general I have valued mitigation more so than avoidance. So even if 2 different stats are statistically similar, or cause your character to take the same amount of damage over time, I still prefer the mitigation.

This is because I believe that mitigation allows any particular set of swing to each be more closer to the average swing (assuming a miss is a hit for 0). This basically mean, you will take damage at a more consistent rate.

Taking damage at a more consistent rate is easier to be healed through. Also note, the faster the mob hits, the more close avoidance will be to mitigation in terms of consistency for a given length of time.

HP also comes into play, but most of the benefits should be pretty obvious, and I don't feel the need to address the more complex issues in great detail at this time.

To define an avoid: Parry, Riposte, Block, or any skill that causes a swing at you do 0 damage is an avoidance skill. Luckily for you, these are parseable. Any time you parry, riposte, block, etc, your log file reports it as so.


You will need to do one of the following calculations yourself to most accuratly rank the worth of the skill mods to your character:

Way #1 - The Controlled Way
I've never parsed it myself, but this is what I would do if I were interested:
1)Get a good parser, and find a mob (and always the same mob) and let it swing at you for 10-15 minutes.
2)Calculate the % parry, riposted, blocked, dodge etc. Some of the parsers do this for you automatically, for example gamparse does.
3)Add in some parry, riposte, block, dodge mod etc and only one of different types, and do the same test again. Note the % increase in avoidance.
4)Do the same test again at X and Y ac values. Note the difference in average hit against you.
*NOTE* Also record the average dps you took over the period and the total damage taken. For greater accuracy, repeat these tests. The more times repeated, the more accurate the results.

Way #2 - The Lazy Way
1)I parse my huge log file, and figure my average % avoid based on each skill.
2)I then take my character skill in each ability and divide the mod on an item by this number. This gives me a % increase.
3)I multiply the average % avoid by the % increase (step1 x step2).


Example w/ made up numbers:
1)I riposte 10% of attacks
2)I have 225 riposte and the item in question has a 5 riposte mod. So it would gives me a 2.22% increase in dodge skill.
3) 10%x2.22%=10.22%

So I gain a 0.22% increase in avoidance in this example. Or, .044% increase/pt of riposte mod.

I then rank this against the other stats of the item.

I value ac (fomelo) at the rate of a minimum of .0333% mitigation per point of ac.

So in terms of equal benefit for this example: 5 riposte = 0.22% increase in avoidance = 6.6 ac = 0.22 increase in mitigation. But I already stated, I value the mitigation higher, and not only that the AC is only a minimum of .22 increase in mitigation to me.

I'll let you figure out the worth of HP (most people value it at 1 ac = 3 - 5 hp), but this varies depending on spell damage taken, etc. You should also take into consideration the benefit you gain from the riposte itself doing extra damage, having a chance to proc, and generating more agro on the mob you are tanking.


If you feel you are unable to do these calculations, send me some of your logs and I would be glad to assist you with my "lazy way". I am also more than happy to answer any other questions you have. If you want to know what I value each mod at for my character, feel free to send me a PM here, a tell in game, or come on our vent.
 
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You may also want to seek input from Manguadi, Jose, Cinn and maybe Ponden as I believe they know some things about this as well.
 
The lazy way is probably not going to be accurate for a couple of reasons.

  • 1 - The EQEmu code upon which the SoD code is based calculates avoidance skill roll in by the following formula, which includes a constant avoidance chance just for having the skill. This means that avoidance skill makes up the majority, but not all of the chance for a skill check to succeed.
    Code:
    EQEmu avoidance skill roll:
    
    2 + SkillLevel / 35 = ChanceToSucceed
  • 2 - Skill checks can only succeed after any previous checks have failed, which means that for each avoidance skill you have the following skill checks can never succeed on successful rolls of previous skill checks.
    Code:
    Example (made up numbers):
    
    10% chance to riposte = 10% of non-missed hits riposted (90% remaining)
    12% chance to block = 10.8% of non-missed hits blocked (79.2% remaining)
    10% chance to parry = 7.92% of non-missed hits parried (71.28% remaining)
    10% chance to dodge = 7.128% of non-missed hits dodged (64.152% remaining)
    
    10.22% chance to riposte = 10.22% of non-missed hits riposted (89.78% remaining)
    12% chance to block = 10.7736% of non-missed hits blocked (79.0064% remaining)
    10% chance to parry = 7.90064% of non-missed hits parried (71.10576% remaining)
    10% chance to dodge = 7.110576% of non-missed hits dodged (63.995184% remaining)
    
    64.152 - 63.995184 = 0.156816
    So even though you might assume that you would avoid 0.22% more non-miss attacks you only wind up avoiding 0.156816% more non-miss attacks. And even that is just the percent of extra attacks that you avoid after AGI, Defense skill, AAs, and styles have been factored in to the basic hit and miss formula. The percentage of real attacks avoided because of the addition of a skill mod is probably going to be minuscule even if the actual numbers for avoidance provided by 250 of these skill is even larger than 10%.

There is too much going on to guess at the value of skill mods without actual controlled tests.

Also I agree with Stope's assessment of the tactical superiority of mitigation over avoidance.
 
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Being a tank myself I have thought about these same issues, but also have nver put in the log time because mostly I am too lazy and I just want to go around having fun killing shit. That aside a few things to keep in mind.
1. Block mod does nothing as per this thread http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=6941&page=4
unless your are a monk or beast.
2. Parry and riposte are lost while casting and when a mob is behind you. Obviously you should not be tanking with your back but if you are a knight you will most likely be casting so mods to these skill will be less beneficial.
3. Anecdotal evidence I have heard that riposte skill has a much lower chance than other defensive skills and therefore mods to it also give a smaller effect.

So, in conclusion dodge mod may be a valuable stat, and parry for warriors. But, like stope said, it is better to have a given round be closer to average than to have many spikes and valleys in terms of incoming damage regardless of long term incoming damage from a "difficulty to heal" perspective. In other words mitigation (AC) is the way to go.
 
[...] Anecdotal evidence I have heard that riposte skill has a much lower chance than other defensive skills and therefore mods to it also give a smaller effect. [...]

It's hard to say if this is the same in SoD, but on EQEmu you can't riposte a riposte, but you can succeed the roll in which case it will show up as a miss on the client.
 
2. Parry and riposte are lost while casting and when a mob is behind you. Obviously you should not be tanking with your back but if you are a knight you will most likely be casting so mods to these skill will be less beneficial.

Was this code reinserted and I just missed it somehow? I'd brought up the issue once before in this thread. A response from Wiz cleared up the issue stating that it had been removed. Can a Dev confirm or deny this please?
 
You're going to see a very minimal increase from say, +25 parry or +25 dodge, but they do help. As for mitigation vs. avoidance, mitigation would be the clear victor if it was always in full effect. The way SoD works, you have guaranteed mitigation, and potential mitigation. You will say, always mitigate 25% of incoming damage, but you can potentially mitigate 75% of incoming damage. So it's down to which is better, negating 25% of every hit, with the chance to negate 75% of some hits, or completely avoiding 25% of a mobs hits, with the chance to be hit for serious numbers? Something thats 100% is always going to be better than relying on an imperfect random number generator.
 
Parse from maybe a year ago (or so). This was just a rough parse (decent duration, but not hours) to get a feel for what defensive mods did. This was detailed enough for me.

JOSE:

+25 Parry With Items
Eskos Naldeen
Duration 1255
Damage to Jose: 258697
NPC DPS: 201

TOTAL HITS: 1290
Dodge 142 - 7.3%
Parry 181 - 8%
Blocked 95 - 4%
Riposte 121 - 5.8%


+0 Parry from Items
Eskos Naldeen
Duration 773
Damage to Jose: 165594
NPC DPS: 199

TOTAL HITS: 822
Dodge 93 - 7.4%
Parry 90 - 6.4%
Blocked 58 - 3.9%
Riposte 73 - 5.5%


Summary: +25 parry adds 1.5% more parrying from 225 base

Edit: keep in mind the NPC DPS is largely irrelevant -- because changing items to get +25 parry and 0 parry mods changed AC/etc also.
 
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TOTAL HITS: 1290
Dodge 142 - 7.3%
Parry 181 - 8%
Blocked 95 - 4%
Riposte 121 - 5.8%

TOTAL HITS: 822
Dodge 93 - 7.4%
Parry 90 - 6.4%
Blocked 58 - 3.9%
Riposte 73 - 5.5%

Those are some very strange results you have there. These parses show a 25 percent boost in the power of the parry skill. It would be interesting to see parses that anybody else has done.
 
Yea, from those numbers, it's exactly a 25% increase in parry %.

His parry skill increased by 11%.

I don't feel this is inordinately large as the sample size is small. More info would need to be submitted.

Another thing to take into consideration (which many already have) is that the code may be different on SoD than eqemu code.


Although I haven't fully parsed and checked this information, It appears that 1 skill mod in a defensive skill is less than 1 ac in terms of benefit. However, I would have to double check that for accuracy before I will stand by it fully.
 
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A '25% increase' doesn't mean a whole lot when you're only parrying 6% of incoming hits to begin with.
 
I am pretty sure Ac has diminishing returns as when praxes had over 10k ac on the fun server he still got hit by mobs. It would be interesting to see where it kicks in though.
 
AC directly translates into a % of potential damage reduction on hits. For example, 1500 AC is ~80% potential reduction. Then, a fourth of that is turned into certain reduction (meaning at 1500 AC you always reduce hits by at least 20%) and the rest is randomized for the true reduction number for a single hit (so reduction is anywhere from 20-80%, and on average 50%, at 1500 AC).

There are two softcaps of AC, and they do not vary based on class. One at 100 (each point before 100 makes a much bigger difference, so that AC on lower levels is more useful), and one at 500 (each point before 500 makes a bigger difference, same reason as above). After 500 all AC is the same.

The potential reduction may be capped at 100% which would put the certain reduction at 25%. This is just one possible cause for still taking damage with a crazy amount of AC. The statements about AC softcaps and all AC after 500 being the same makes me suspect (just speculating here) that an AC ceiling might exist and after you are at some maximum AC amount, more AC will not do anything at all.
 
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