Charms

[darksabbath]

Fine with me, just also do something about charms. Charms exist as a pointless platinum sink, or rather they would be a platinum sink except that nearly all the money that enters the coffers of the players does so for the express purpose of buying charms. Farming for charms isn't fun or good for anybody except the most masochistic amongst us.

Why not base charms off of the amount of aa's, tomes, or some sort've character progression? I know you all hate to hear of EQlive and how it is a horrible game, but aside from your Intricate Wooden Figurine(PoP) -- you really only get charms(that are worth while) after that through raiding. And even the Intricate Wooden Figurine was based solely on your character's planar progression through the expansion.

Also not to sidetrack but no one likes charms as implemented but as stated it is too late to do anything about it.

Instead of sidetracking the other thread, I thought I'd create a new one for this discussion, as it is an important one. Now, the prevailing thought is that charms can't be changed, it is just too late in the game to do that. But who says the existing ones need to changed? Couldn't some new system of charms be implemented, in conjunction with the old system?

Idea 1) A charm you receive in the dream, or sold very cheaply at the vendor, that is an exp-able item. It could have a few base stats that are good for your class (like tanks could get 1ac, 1str, 1sta, 3hp), and the item would be expable. That way the charm could grow with the toon as you level up. Perhaps at certain points (like levels of the charm) the player could do a quest that adds extra stats to the charm, like +atk, regen, ft, vision upgrades, etc. These quests would of course send you to lesser used zones, just like bounty hunting and the blessed tag does.

Idea 2) A charm that gains power purely on the "flags" your toon acquires. These could be ones the game normally tracks, like IP access, Well, etc. Could also add in flags for downing all the named of a zone (cleared all of air or nightmare (etc), get a stats boost) also. Could even get a boost flags for downing adepts, kill them all (or 75%, whatever), get a stats upgrade. That way people who tier jump would miss out on charm upgrades, making more of the content killed, as people will want the flags. Min/maxxers rejoice! Get X number of flags, and get a set boost to stats, or the added stats.


The upside to either of these systems, is that you can't "twink" a new toon with them, and you should get more content seen and done. More zones will be killed that have lesser cash drops, purely because people won't need to farm cash as much, just grind xp. You can still leave the old charms in, if people want to farm cash for them endlessly, they can go right ahead. Those who have spent the cash on the old charms can certainly keep them, this revised system would be a boon to newer players, that can see that 1.2mil cost as a prohibitive mountain to climb.


*Dons his fire resist gears, gets fire resist buff* Flame away people...

 

[fuwok]

I like those ideas or both of those ideas at once even.

 

[JarL]

Cool ideas. I like them both.

 

[Zaela]

I've had a hankering for a charm that grows with quest completed/nameds fought/raid content defeated ever since putting in expable items. But it's pointless to discuss such ideas with the old charms still around.

Either the new charm will end up better than supreme at its apex and so no one will ever consider buying a charm again (and people who do have supremes will drop them to start grinding flags or whatever (and frothing at the mouth at all the time spent grinding cash that is now worthless)), or it will not be as good as supreme and the majority will dismiss them outright.

 

[Rorne]

Give everyone some kind of flag that provides the same stats for the kind of charms they have currently and then remove all charms from the game. Old players will always have that legacy advantage(like they don't have a huge one already) but new ones will never have to climb that mountain. You're welcome.

 

[fuwok]

Give everyone some kind of flag that provides the same stats for the kind of charms they have currently and then remove all charms from the game. Old players will always have that legacy advantage(like they don't have a huge one already) but new ones will never have to climb that mountain. You're welcome.

Yeah. Existing charms being converted into a pre-leveled new charm based on how much money was spent and have all new chars pick up a levelable charm in the dream. I like that!

edit:

also, this would be fine

Either the new charm will end up better than supreme at its apex and so no one will ever consider buying a charm again

 

[darksabbath]

Zae, why would the charm have to be better or worse.. would it be too cumbersome to make the system so that they equal out in the end? It's a serious question, as I know nothing of what it takes code for EQ. (I haven't done any code work since using basic in high school, lol.)

Rorne's idea would work well also.. or they trade their existing charm in for the comparable new style charm.

 

[fuwok]

Really the actual charms could stay the same but the method of earning them would change. Rather than farming platinum endlessly they could xp/milestone into the next charm.

 

[Zaela]

would it be too cumbersome to make the system so that they equal out in the end?

Yes. Unless the amount of quests/raid zones/raid mobs never, ever changes, I guess, but even then would take a lot of careful spreadsheeting.

And it would have to take not being able to raid certain planes because of deity into account.

 

[darksabbath]

Exactly Fuwok, it takes the must farm cash out of the mindset. People will only have to grind xp, which is what everyone already does really. Prices on items might even go up some, as people will have money to spend on other things (inc uber twink hc toons).

Edit to add:

Yes. Unless the amount of quests/raid zones/raid mobs never, ever changes, I guess, but even then would take a lot of careful spreadsheeting.

And it would have to take not being able to raid certain planes because of deity into account.

Well, then Fuwok's idea of the people with charms get handed the equal xp'd version would be the best. And really, if the new system took into account quests also, then more people would do quests that otherwise get ignored. Hooray for more content being used!

 

[Rorne]

No I meant just don't have any charms at all after you remove the existing ones. They are just a huge fucking headache that amplifies the disparity between players with different capability for time investment. Whether they level with exp or you buy them with cash that still holds true and an expable charm is just recreating the exact same problem. Instead of being expected to farm X amount of plat it's X amount of exp. Reimburse players who poured way too much time into plat farming by just giving them the charm stats since you can't remove them without those people killing themselves and then be fucking done with it, charms were a short sighted and retarded mechanic and didn't even fucking accomplish their main goal of being platsinks when fucking platfarming areas were added for the express purpose of affording them and people spent extra time accumulating money for this purpose!!!

 

[Rorne]

Here is the disconnect you guys are having yes everyone already grinds exp but it's safe to say these charms would take immense amounts to max out, it's just going to reach time where you are expected to grind it up because a group of amorphous blobs have maxed theirs out in 12 days or something.

 

[Zaela]

I never really considered making them expable whenever I thought about it. As it is players usually go from 1 to 65 with the one tiny crappy charm, so having them be expable from level 1 wouldn't really match up.

 

[fuwok]

I don't have a disconnect about it. Getting xp in groups is way more fun than sitting in highkeep 2boxing for platinum. You're gonna do some plenty of xping during your SoD career. If you've done any appreciable amount of farming (which most all of us have), you know that sitting alone, up all night hoarding money isn't fun. You'd love to group or do anything else pretty much, but you can't because you'd have to share the piddly pp with some other jerks, and never make it to the charm.

XPing is actually a fun part - its still a grind, yes, but with the amount of tomes circulating you'll be grinding a very long time for tome xp past when you'd max out a charm I imagine.

 

[darksabbath]

Here is the disconnect you guys are having yes everyone already grinds exp but it's safe to say these charms would take immense amounts to max out, it's just going to reach time where you are expected to grind it up because a group of amorphous blobs have maxed theirs out in 12 days or something.

The expectation to grind exp already exists, it's called codex and tome(s). And as Fuwok said, grinding xp with people is fun, solo/boxxing a place just for cash is boring, lame, and drains all the fun out of the game.

 

[Raxton]

Charms are awesome plat sinks that make this ecomony work, regardless of alot of plat being generated solely for charms. I think farming is fun. Saving for 4 months isnt as much fun though. My fix would be adding more charms to make the saving time smaller... so add between 200k / 600k and between 600k / 1.2m. Also 1.8m and 2.4m.

 

[Rorne]

The expectation to grind exp already exists, it's called codex and tome(s). And as Fuwok said, grinding xp with people is fun, solo/boxxing a place just for cash is boring, lame, and drains all the fun out of the game.

Yes and by implementing an exp charm you are just increasing expectations regarding how much grinding you should have done. How is that a good solution?

Like to endorse this idea is to say that ikisith tomes were also a good idea (they weren't). The more exping you are required/expected to do as part of reaching an accepted baseline for later tiers the further out that sets the goal posts for people just starting out.

 

[fuwok]

That presumes that it will take more grinding than getting your 5 tomes and some other tomes done, which is a lot of grinding.

Make xping out a supreme the same as 4 codex or 5 codex.

 

[darksabbath]

Increasing expectations over "65+++ group looking for more, have all 5 codex and 20 tomes done or don't message me." ? yeah, I guess I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it. *rolls eyes*

@Raxton: And do you enjoy perhaps beating your own back with rusty barbed wire? Because it sure seems like you enjoy punishing yourself. Though, if the present system must stay, adding more charms of in-between costs would be good. I always thought it could use more fleshing out.

 

[Sodshaman1]

Idea 2) A charm that gains power purely on the "flags" your toon acquires. These could be ones the game normally tracks, like IP access, Well, etc. Could also add in flags for downing all the named of a zone (cleared all of air or nightmare (etc), get a stats boost) also. Could even get a boost flags for downing adepts, kill them all (or 75%, whatever), get a stats upgrade. That way people who tier jump would miss out on charm upgrades, making more of the content killed, as people will want the flags. Min/maxxers rejoice! Get X number of flags, and get a set boost to stats, or the added stats.

Problem with that proposed system is people, rarely, will ever find themselves stumbling upon OP/IP pugs or well pugs or full nightmare clears or full CoD and Sepulcher clears or any of the other raid zones. The only time we ever went into Nightmare was for a Paladin's quest to kill worms. Also, you can't kill adepts at 65 so how would you address that issue? Just automatically get that boost generated on your charm?

Also, the tier jumping thing would be a killer, too. Reason behind that is most guilds(that aren't T10+) recruiting basically are asking for 300 AA+ and be able to not drool-cup through a raid. T10+ guilds will not take time to run their new members through these raids/zones. So you'd have to make a decision: Pray that a progression guild/pugs get you your flags. Pray that your guild is willing to set aside one night a week to do back-flagging.

They are just a huge fucking headache that amplifies the disparity between players with different capability for time investment. Whether they level with exp or you buy them with cash that still holds true and an expable charm is just recreating the exact same problem. Instead of being expected to farm X amount of plat it's X amount of exp.

Another truth that nobody seems to understand. You are going from plat-farming to xp-farming. Sure, you can make the fight of "Well, there are tomes to grind! AA's! OMG YOU CAN'T STOP GRINDING!" but in the end those are yet just more time investments that were pretty stupid and poorly placed into the game. Either way, the time investment is the same.

XPing is actually a fun part - its still a grind, yes, but with the amount of tomes circulating you'll be grinding a very long time for tome xp past when you'd max out a charm I imagine.

Do you think a new player would find buying a 1mil charm(or the charm right below) faster than grinding the codex of power x5 and then additional class specific tomes? I love grouping and have grouped with you one time in Mielech C. Dimmi was screwing around down there, you showed up, and we ran through the zone and raped and pillaged like pirates and you guys basically gave me all of the plat/loot from the zone. It was probably the most memorable experience I had on SoD, to be quite honest. But regardless, I don't see how exchanging time-sink for time-sink really helps.



All in all, sometimes you may just have to deal with a charm extraction. I feel bad for all of you that have put in the time to grind the charms, I really do. But as said earlier, you cannot fix the issue by just replacing it with another of the same type. Reimburse them with a % of the plat they spent, a title, a free race change, or something more creative. Nothing, especially with online-games, is a promised forever.