Burning War Drum

Rouean_Onrielas

Dalayan Beginner
I'm posting with the suggestion of either removing Burning Rhythms from this drum altogether or simply removing the snare portion of this effect.

The mod on this drum is 3.1 percussion

Burning Rhythms:
85% snare
+250 attack
+30 Fire resist

This drum is from elaborate chests in ToT which are extremely rare spawns that require rare keys.

The next highest drum mod (please correct me if I'm wrong) is the Concubines tambourine which is a 2.6 mod drum from Yellow con trash in PoA.

(There may be one drum in between in PoT or PoN but it escapes me at this time so if anyone knows of it feel free to post.)

Basically what you see here is a .5 increase to the percussion mod. This may be all well and good but the War Drum is nearly useless. You cannot kite with this drum due to the snare. Even with selo's you will not be able to outrun normal mob pursuit speed. Going from PoA to ToT is a huge jump in content and tier difficulty. I don't think it's unfair to ask that a bard should be able to use this drum to solo due to the fact that this drum is necessary for only 1 encounter that you would still be doing by the time you acquire this drum.

This drum is also not an equivalent to melee for a bard.

These are my dot numbers for the relic and disease dots with 8% deity spec and 3.65% from Tome exp

Conc. Tamb: 2.6

Relic: 752/tick
Disease: 300/tick

War Drum: 3.1

Relic: 869/tick
Disease: 347/tick

Thaz Pants: 2.1

Relic: 634/tick
Disease: 253/tick

So a Bard using thaz pants will do a roudabout of 147.8 dps with 2 dots (resists and crits aside)

The bard using the War drum would do 202.7 dps with 2 dots (resists and crits aside)

The drum bard does 54.9 more dps which sounds good on paper but lets not forget these bard's other means of dps.

Lets say they both use Brusco's so we can nullify that dps since there would be no difference between the two.
The thaz pants bard will be dual wielding weapons and have 4-6 procs at their disposal.
The drum bard will have throwing daggers and possibly 1 proc. (Burning rhythms adds 250 attack but since it's worn only 150 takes effect anyway)

The 4-6 procs alone will cover much of the the throwing dps and the 1 proc alone not to mention the dps this bard does with his/her melee making the bard using thaz pants and melee do far more dps.

I am asking that the War Drum have the snare removed so that we can use this drum to solo like we have used the poa one for ages. It only affects us while kiting and is utterly useless in the raid game so I don't see why this should be a problem seeing as the War drum is a huge amount of tiers above the Conc Tambourine.
 
Yeah... I can tell you immediately that the snare will never be removed. As the best drum in the game, not having snare will allow you to kite virtually every mob in the game, making bard exp unbalanced.

This is a drum that is situational on Whirlwind mobs so bards can have a DPS boost when they are unable to melee.
 
I don't want to derail here as I think Tyrone & Draxx are right, but using throwing weaps might require another ALL instruments not being a weapon or range item cause usually at this point it's the puppet.
EDIT: well nm I guess at this point the thaz armor pieces should cover most other instruments.
 
Like has already been stated, this is a situational drum. I can do 248dps on dots alone with this drum, so really the ranged DPS it creates is quite good (that is not including nukes). Being able to kite with this would just make my dps get even more silly...so really, the snare effect needs to stay. It was created to be a situational tool, which I think it does a great job at.
 
Like pretty much all instruments, it is a very situational item and its uses have already been mentioned in this thread. But it also follows suit with other instruments too in that it is usually not worth using. Considering that has been the case for awhile now I don't see why this drum would be exempt from that.

Draxx said:
As the best drum in the game, not having snare will allow you to kite virtually every mob in the game, making bard exp unbalanced.

Actually this drum would do nothing but make kiting faster it wouldn't let you kite anything that was previously unkitable. Still I pretty much agree because even without the snare this drum is better left in your backpack on most raids, so the only time it might find use would be when soloing.
 
This drum is literally useful for ONE encounter that you will EVER do by this tier. You lose a huge amount of dps by using this drum on any sort of raid or exp group. This drum will literally only be useful when kiting. It's not in the least bit overpowering. Rangers can kite with their ToT epic Bow which is a hell of a lot better than any PoA level bow. Wizards get better focuses and more mana to kite with going from PoA to ToT. Why on earth should bards not get better at soloing in the least bit going from PoA to ToT.

This drum is seriously only 27.4 dps over the Concubine tambourine which is extremely minor going all the way from PoA to ToT.

Spiritplx said:
Like has already been stated, this is a situational drum. I can do 248dps on dots alone with this drum, so really the ranged DPS it creates is quite good (that is not including nukes). Being able to kite with this would just make my dps get even more silly...so really, the snare effect needs to stay. It was created to be a situational tool, which I think it does a great job at.

Situational as in 1 encounter? A bard with 5 completed tomes and 20% deity? give me a break. No other bard is near that in DoT dps not to mention the fact that using (melee + nukes + dots) kicks the shit out of (drum + nukes + throwing daggers) in dps.

robopirateninja said:
Is the drum more beneficial than meleeing on a whirlwind mob?

You get this from an extremely rare chest by using a very rare key in the second highest raid zone in the game. What mobs would you use this on and benefit. Like I said before i can think of one.

Draxx said:
Yeah... I can tell you immediately that the snare will never be removed. As the best drum in the game, not having snare will allow you to kite virtually every mob in the game, making bard exp unbalanced.

This is a drum that is situational on Whirlwind mobs so bards can have a DPS boost when they are unable to melee.

Your point is moot. Bards are a kiting class as are rangers and wizards. Why should the best drum (27 more dps than PoA drum lol) not be able to be used. Well then by your logic the best bow should have a snare and the best wizard focuses should only work in raids. Give me a break. There is no reason on earth this drum should have a snare.

I hope you also realize that all I would have to do is 54 dps melee jousting to get the same dps for the ONE mob it could possibly be used for.
 
Giving this drum to a bard with 0 tomes or 5 tomes would be insane if there is no snare on it. Just because I have a lot of exp doesn't mean this drum is not powerful in the hands of another bard. If you are going to suggest the snare be removed, also suggest that the modifier be reduced as well to make it more in line with progression and not a .5 increase to the other available drums.

If you know how to maximize your dps while kiting, you can get it to be extremely high. From what I have seen, the staff does not want solo exp to be close to group exp, so I really don't see this drum being changed.
 
Spiritplx said:
Giving this drum to a bard with 0 tomes or 5 tomes would be insane if there is no snare on it. Just because I have a lot of exp doesn't mean this drum is not powerful in the hands of another bard. If you are going to suggest the snare be removed, also suggest that the modifier be reduced as well to make it more in line with progression and not a .5 increase to the other available drums.

If you know how to maximize your dps while kiting, you can get it to be extremely high. From what I have seen, the staff does not want solo exp to be close to group exp, so I really don't see this drum being changed.

What are you talking about? What drum progression you mean the 0 drums from Plane of Air to Tower of Tarhyl? let me put this in caps for you. IT IS 27 MORE DPS ONLY. That is jumping from tier 3 or 4 all the way to the 2nd or 3rd highest tier. I know how to maximize my dps and I know how to kite and I know this drum is not a huge increase for the difficulty it takes to obtain compared to the PoA drum.
Even using 3 relics on 3 mobs you get 58 more dps over like 10+ tiers or something

How much more dps is the ToT bow than a PoA tiered bow? balance the drum with that. How much more dps is a wizard with ToT level focuses than a PoA level focused wizard? Balance the drum with that then. I dont see this drum out of progression at all the only problem is that the progression was non existent.
 
First of all, if it is 27dps increase, then 3 mobs it would be 81 dps. Seeing as though on a good day bards get 300dps with songs and melee, I would say an increase of 81 dps is pretty substantial. Getting an upgrade of about 20-25% (depending on how many mobs you are fighting and how you are doing dps) to your dps with one item is quite good. And yes, I am using this in a kiting situation only, because that is the only place where it becomes overpowered.

I agree there is not much drum progression, but I also don't think it should increase .1 even every two tiers. There may be more instruments introduced later, but I doubt we ever see a drum with this high of a mod lack a snare component.
 
Spiritplx said:
First of all, if it is 27dps increase, then 3 mobs it would be 81 dps. Seeing as though on a good day bards get 300dps with songs and melee, I would say an increase of 81 dps is pretty substantial. Getting an upgrade of about 25% to your dps with one item is quite good. And yes, I am using this in a kiting situation only, because that is the only place where it becomes overpowered.

I agree there is not much drum progression, but I also don't think it should increase .1 even every two tiers. There may be more instruments introduced later, but I doubt we ever see a drum with this high of a mod lack a snare component.

First:
learn2math (869 x 3) / 6 = 434.5 and (752 x 3) / 6 = 376 then 434.5 - 376 = 58.5

2nd:
Your dps numbers are way off bud

I am sorry if I come off sounding like I'm being a dick but the flat out fact is that noone is looking at the actual dps increases a bard will recieve from the removed snare, the level of difficulty and time for obtaining each drum, and when a bard could use this drum effectively.
 
Rouean_Onrielas said:
First:
learn2math (869 x 3) / 6 = 434.5 and (752 x 3) / 6 = 376 then 434.5 - 376 = 58.5

2nd:
Your dps numbers are way off bud

I am sorry if I come off sounding like I'm being a dick but the flat out fact is that noone is looking at the actual dps increases a bard will recieve from the removed snare, the level of difficulty and time for obtaining each drum, and when a bard could use this drum effectively.

Your right, I didn't do the math, because I was believing your numbers. If you get a dps increase of 27 for just the relic dot (which is what I thought you meant, sorry) then my numbers work out.

I'll just use me for example...I do 531.5 dps with that drum if I were able to kite with it.

With Traek drum, I do 460 dps. So, I guess for me it is only an increase of 71.5, which is still fairly substantial (a 15.5% increase to just kiting dps).

Sure it is higher dps, but still, one item giving an increase of anything over 5% is pretty amazing. Anything that gives 3 times that amount would just be overpowered.

Also, without giving anything away, the drum is just kind of an added bonus to the loot tables of the chests.


Like I have said, I agree the drum progression is non-existent, but I think that should be discussed in another thread.
 
Spiritplx said:
Your right, I didn't do the math, because I was believing your numbers. If you get a dps increase of 27 for just the relic dot (which is what I thought you meant, sorry) then my numbers work out.

I'll just use me for example...I do 531.5 dps with that drum if I were able to kite with it.

With Traek drum, I do 460 dps. So, I guess for me it is only an increase of 71.5, which is still fairly substantial (a 15.5% increase to just kiting dps).

Sure it is higher dps, but still, one item giving an increase of anything over 5% is pretty amazing. Anything that gives 3 times that amount would just be overpowered.

Also, without giving anything away, the drum is just kind of an added bonus to the loot tables of the chests.


Like I have said, I agree the drum progression is non-existent, but I think that should be discussed in another thread.

Here's the thing. 71.5 is with 20% spec and 5 competed tomes. This is literally the most dps anyone could ever possibly increase from conc to war.

even if drums were in progression and not missing. You would still be at either 3.0 or 3.1 by the time you made it to ToT if you went up .1 every 2 tiers from PoA. This drum isnt out of progression it simply seems like it is since there was no progression. But what many don't realize is that bard dot dps while kiting has been stagnant since tier 3. This drum is perfectly in line with where it should be without the snare

Also to the giveaway lets not forget conc was from trash mobs in PoA not a named so getting it from an elaborate chest is actually harder to do.
 
So ask for a better progression/itemization for instruments, not for an already awesome item (albeit situational) to have its balancing factor totally removed.
 
If you really want the drum to be made more useful in the situations it was deigned for without totally ruining the item as it was designed, maybe you could instead argue for a slightly better modifier, if eating whirlwind is preferable to using it with the current modifier.
 
Mythryn said:
So ask for a better progression/itemization for instruments, not for an already awesome item (albeit situational) to have its balancing factor totally removed.

The drum is balanced for it's tier without an 85% snare. I don't know how many other ways to say it. Lack of progression doesnt mean this item is out of whack for where it should be. It simply means this drum's mod is where it should be. Conc's mod is where it should be. then make more drums in between and it still works out the same. Even Make it 2.9 or 3.0 then I don't care just make it useful for something other than ONE (1) (UNO) fight.

Look at it this way. say there were many ranger bows in game but for some reason there was no bow between PoA and ToT. should the tot bow be only a tiny bit above the PoA bow because there is nothing between? No, the ToT bow should be far above the PoA bow and then other bows could be itemized through the tiers also but that is a different argument than the argument that makes the ToT bow be where it should be.

robopirateninja said:
If you really want the drum to be made more useful in the situations it was deigned for without totally ruining the item as it was designed, maybe you could instead argue for a slightly better modifier, if eating whirlwind is preferable to using it with the current modifier.

This item was designed for one fight? Doesn't make much sense to me.. Why not make the item better by making it useful for a soloing bard and quit trying to reinvent the bard class with this "bards should not melee they should stand back and dot" stuff. Bards are a melee/caster not simply a caster. If you want to balance an item just for one encounter go for it, but I don't see why a 27 to 58 dps increase going all the way from PoA to ToT is even considered a big deal.

This change would not affect a bard in the raid game at all. This is simply asking for is an increase from PoA to ToT. How would you feel about your character if you were a wizard and never got a new damage increment going from PoA to ToT. How about if you were a tank and never got more AC going from PoA to ToT, A ranger never getting a new bow after PoA. Etc, etc.
 
How is it balanced? A base drum is 1.8 mod, while Concubine's has a 2.6. .8 difference, and you can get that at level 1, while it takes months to get to 65. So, tier uh, -10000000, to tier 0/1 gets a .8 increase, and you want a .5 from 0/1 to 10? Plus stats? Good luck with that. The drum/snare is balanced. The gap between Concubine's and Burning War, is not.
 
Mythryn said:
How is it balanced? A base drum is 1.8 mod, while Concubine's has a 2.6. .8 difference, and you can get that at level 1, while it takes months to get to 65. So, tier uh, -10000000, to tier 0/1 gets a .8 increase, and you want a .5 from 0/1 to 10? Plus stats? Good luck with that. The drum/snare is balanced. The gap between Concubine's and Burning War, is not.

Balanced how? tell me. Name me some UT or ToT encounters it will actually benefit you for. And I already suggested that it be dropped .1 or .2 and have the snare removed which is not much to ask. Are PoA level bows 27-58 dps below the ToT bow? like I said before balance it with that or how bout this. Is a ToT level focus wizard 27-58 dps more than a PoA level wizard? let me know. Also you went and got .1 from 0 to 3 going from Dancers to conc so why is 3 to 10 not able to be + .3 over conc?
 
Why are you the first bard to think this item needs to be changed?

How do you know that there are no other encounters in the game that require this item?

Last time I checked, Ruin hasn't beaten the game yet.
 
Xach said:
Why are you the first bard to think this item needs to be changed?

How do you know that there are no other encounters in the game that require this item?

Last time I checked, Ruin hasn't beaten the game yet.

Last I checked it's useful for whirlwind mobs only. and I can joust and do 54 dps on any normal whirlwind mob. which is all it takes between procs and melee to equal the gain of this drum on a raid. I have also fought in every encounter that exists short of Sanctum and Thazeran the god encounter. I say one mob only because it Whirlwinds and stuns at the same time. All ToT level and up guilds ( aka 2 guilds) will know what named i mean. Even with this mob all you have to do is get your resists up to where you resist the stun and joust. This drum is situational to the point of "maybe for this one encounter" which equals uselessness. If you want me to think up a whole new progression of drums and where to put them I'd be more than happy to do that but It seems far easier to start with an end point using an item that exists and filling in the blanks don't you agree?
 
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