Balancing Augs for All Types of Users?

A

Alton

Dalayan Beginner
It seems to me that augs are not currently balanced to provide an even benefit to players who use different types.

Augs are currently:
Tailoring Augs = 5ac, 15hp, 30mana.
Smithed Augs = 5ac, 15hp, 30mana.
Jewelery Augs = 4ac, 12hp, 24mana.

Ripped from the Class #1's thread.
AC = Linken(1601), Sald(1511), Volkov(1501), Ginam(1500), Vargg(1482) AC Avg = 1519
Mana = Caelin(8293), Thoias(8199), Terate(8173), Cham(8122), Icarium(8114) Mana Avg = 8180.2
HP = Linken(9354), Sald(8696), Vargg(8574), Grimar(8254), Jose(8209) HP Avg = 8617.4
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There are (I think) 19 augable slots.
Assuming you aug everything (with 5ac/15hp/30mana augs for lazy math), you end up with ~75ac, 285hp, or 570 mana. This gives a boost of:
HP = ~3.31%
AC = ~4.94%
Mana = ~6.96%

In short, those using +HP augs current receive a much smaller benefit than those using AC or Mana.
Any chance we can get +HP augs bumped up to be more competitive?
 
I think the rationale for the difference (in a thread I can't seem to find at the moment) was that HP is useful in more situations than AC. AC is only useful when you're being beaten. HP is useful when you are being beaten, when you are being nuked, or when you are exposed to AOEs. Therefore, a relatively smaller boost to HP was seen as equivalent utility to a relatively larger boost to AC.
 
I'm pretty sure augments are balanced against each other. IE HP is weighed against AC, where 1AC = 3HP on average, (but AC is still better for tanking purposes) but really couldn't be balanced versus how much the tank would actually be gaining. Also remember that fomelo AC is off at the moment.
 
For the purposes of balance, 1 hp = 2 mana.

They're perfectly well balanced.
 
I think most players are reasonably well satisfied with the augment balance. What more can the devs ask for?
 
Alton, your math is a bit misguided. Mana, HP, and (more or less) AC are all linear--by measuring them as % of player power, you're mistakenly assuming that the value of the boost changes when you have more or less, which is not the case; the 10 mana at the end of your 8k is as good as the 10 mana at the start of it. What's more, measuring as a percent of total stat can lead to aberrant results: Consider what would happen if you measured someone with a full rack of +stat augs. Even counting from the Hidden Strength limit, you'd end up with a larger percentage of total stat than you would from mana, but that fact alone doesn't make stat augs overpowered.
 
Wiz said:
For the purposes of balance, 1 hp = 2 mana.

They're perfectly well balanced.
Click to expand...

I guess this is the part I don't really understand.

If for balance, 1hp = 2mana, wouldn't we see most items with a 1:2 ratio?
Not so much 1 item having 100hp 200mana, but the super duper wizard item off a mob has 200mana, the super duper melee item has 100hp.
In reality, they tend to be much closer than 1:2 ratio, no?
 
Alton said:
I guess this is the part I don't really understand.

If for balance, 1hp = 2mana, wouldn't we see most items with a 1:2 ratio?
Not so much 1 item having 100hp 200mana, but the super duper wizard item off a mob has 200mana, the super duper melee item has 100hp.
In reality, they tend to be much closer than 1:2 ratio, no?
Click to expand...

I was actually thinking about this issue earlier in the week and had brought up this exact point. I would just like to know the justification for the apparent differences of the ratio of mana to hp between Augments 1:2 and Caster only items vs melee only items, which seems to be somewhere around 1.5:2.

The argument that the ratio on Augs should approximate the ratio on items assumes that there is balance between caster only and tank only items. I believe that this assumption is correct, but feel free to argue this.
 
Xeldan said:
No...
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Er, why not, then? It doesn't strike me as coincidental that the mana and hp examples in the first post are within 6% or so of each other.

edit: Don't get me wrong, I still think Alton's methodology was flawed for the reasons I explained earlier, but if 2 mana = 1 hp for all items (and not just augs), then something strange has happened.
 
Thinkmeats said:
Er, why not, then? It doesn't strike me as coincidental that the mana and hp examples in the first post are within 6% or so of each other.

edit: Don't get me wrong, I still think Alton's methodology was flawed for the reasons I explained earlier, but if 2 mana = 1 hp for all items (and not just augs), then something strange has happened.
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What? I was telling him we aren't going to put double mana vs hp on items just because 2 mana = 1 hp.
 
This is what confuses me.

If for augs, it makes sense to have a 1hp to 2 mana ratio, why don't pure melee vs. caster items also have that ratio to maintain this balance?

Eg, pure melee (idk, monk/rogue/war) has 100hp, and pure caster has 200mana at the same tier?

In reality, the items are much close to equal hp/mana. Seems generally, a bit more mana (like 150 vs 125) on the same tier.
Why is that balanced, but augs are 15:30?
 
Because augments are designed with a single stat(at least the ones that actually enter the game in large quantities) so they can be designed to be specialized(it's why there are multiple types of augments to begin with).

Items aren't just hp/mana, so while there ARE some items that have a very close 1:2 ratio on hp/mana it isn't usually designed that way on purpose.
 
Xeldan said:
Because augments are designed with a single stat(at least the ones that actually enter the game in large quantities) so they can be designed to be specialized(it's why there are multiple types of augments to begin with).

Items aren't just hp/mana, so while there ARE some items that have a very close 1:2 ratio on hp/mana it isn't usually designed that way on purpose.
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ET rings are identical except for the HP/MANA, and while it's close to this magical 1:2 ratio no one has ever heard of before, the mana ring is 50 mana short of the balance point.
 
While it is true that newer (at least harder to obtain) gear should be better than old:
Are the nickle and dimes of itemization so important that you spend more time crunching numbers than actually enjoying (notice I didn't say playing) the game itself?

Not pointed at anyone in particular, just a comment to a noticeable trend that pops up from time to time when it comes to itemization descrepancies.
 
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