Alchemists' Expertise

[w4shards]

Hello. If you have expertise in alchemy, please help me along by answering some questions. I've been all over the Wiki and have spent an hour searching the forums but it seems that the information is not documented or is not easily found (or that I'm not very adept at using the Wiki or the forums...) I am currently at skill level 109 but it's getting so expensive that I think it's time to understand alchemy more deeply before proceeding.

Question #1: What is the highest disparity in skill level that still allows you a chance to make the potion? From my experimentation is seems to be 30. E.g. at 107 I could make a level 135 potion (after many attempts) but I could not make a level 140. It's clearly not wise to over-reach like that, but I would like to know the answer.

Question #2: What are the dynamics behind the message "you can no longer advance your skill from making this item?" I assumed it meant that your alchemy skill will not increase further by creating the current potion's skill level, but while making a certain potion I got the message and, having enough ingredients to make two more, I decided to use them up and then got a skill up + experience on the last combine! I did not save a screen shot; you'll have to take my word for it.

- Do I understand the message correctly?
- Is it skill level based or can you only make X number of one type of potion before being forced to move to a different potion?
- How often does the game code make that announcement? It appears that it generates the message every 20 combines.

Question #3: If the "advance your skill" message is level based, then what is the minimum, next higher skill level required to "advance your skill from making this item?" It appears to be something like 5 to 10, i.e. at 109, making a 110 does not seem to advance your skill.

Question #4: Are there any +alchemy items in the game? Are there any items that help with alchemy in some way?

Please excuse any ignorance on my part or any poorly worded questions. If you can decipher the post and have expertise in alchemy, I would appreciate the feedback or any other information regarding alchemy that is poorly documented. I will update the Wiki alchemy pages with anything I learn. Thanks!

 

[Animand]

Tarutao knows more about this than anyone else (except possibly the person who coded it), but I'll give you some basic info.

Q1: There's a formula for it that some tradeskillers know, I remember Tarutao deriving it, but I just don't remember it.

Q2: You understand the message correctly, and if you got a skill up from it then something went wrong. Each recipe has a trivial level, and once you have a skill at least as high as a recipe's trivial level, you can no longer raise your skill by making it. Nothing else, including number of combines done with a recipe, should effect it.

Q3: It should be the same as the answer to question 1 if I recall correctly.

Q4: There were some interesting (and horrible) items included with Ikisith, such as one that give +Pottery, but I don't recall any for Alchemy.

Keep the questions coming if you have 'em.

 

[Tarutao]

Question #1: What is the highest disparity in skill level that still allows you a chance to make the potion?

28. This number is constant among the combine-based tradeskills as a result of the formula used to determine chance of success of succeeding a tradeskill combine.

Question #2: What are the dynamics behind the message "you can no longer advance your skill from making this item?" I assumed it meant that your alchemy skill will not increase further by creating the current potion's skill level

That's correct. To elaborate, every combine has a "trivial level", the point at which your modified skill level (skill level plus skill mods) will prevent you from continuing to improve your skill with this combine. This message depends entirely on your modified skill level and the trivial level of the combine you are attempting.

but while making a certain potion I got the message and, having enough ingredients to make two more, I decided to use them up and then got a skill up + experience on the last combine! I did not save a screen shot; you'll have to take my word for it.

I neither believe you nor will take your word for it. You must have been mistaken. Remember that all of the combines taking 10 of a potion and making a 10-dose potion are trivial and no-fail at skill zero.

Question #4: Are there any +alchemy items in the game? Are there any items that help with alchemy in some way?

There are none that I am aware of. That does not mean they necessarily do not exist.

Tarutao knows more about this than anyone else . . .

There's a formula for it that some tradeskillers know, I remember Tarutao deriving it, but I just don't remember it.

If I remember correctly, the one I derived was slightly off, but it was really close. Wiz has blurted out the formula on a couple of occasions, so as far as I'm concerned, the actual formula is "public knowledge" despite very few people actually knowing it... so here it is:

%chance = 100 - 3.5 * (number of points your modified skill is below the trivial level of the combine). At 28 points below, then, this chance is 2%. Any lower of a modified skill would result in no chance of success and no credit towards a skill increase. A modified skill of at least the trivial level does guarantee combine success.

There were some interesting (and horrible) items included with Ikisith, such as one that give +Pottery

Dude, let it go. There's a Loose Platinum thread for that. As things stand now, the +10 Pottery item isn't broken, and the (three or four?) characters with pottery skill over 90 have not lost the benefit they had doing pottery before this item existed. As things will stand in the future, any changes other than very small changes to Pottery would welcome a revamp of the skill and hence a rebalancing of that item. There's no need for panic or frustration.

 

[w4shards]

Hello everyone. For anyone practicing alchemy, the following will be of interest.

In my first post, in question #2, I mentioned that I got a skill up after having seen a "you can no longer advance your skill from making this item" message. I also mentioned that I was confused regarding the dynamics behind the message; I was getting the message during the course of combines that were above my skill level.

I have the mystery solved, mostly.

The issue is that a combine of 10 individual potions into a 10 Dose Potion does, itself, constitute an attempt. The interspersed "can no longer advance" messages were coming from the 10 dose combines. For instance, if it took me 16 attempts to get 10 potions, the 17th game message associated with the 10 dose combine would announce that I could "no longer advance." Now, when I looked down to my message box and saw that message amongst dozens of similar combination messages, I erroneously associated it with the normal combines.

This is the reason that I got a skill up after getting the "can not advance" message. That message came from a 10 dose combine, and the skill up came from continuing to do normal combines of the same, higher skill level potion type.

The reason that I say that this mystery is MOSTLY solved is that I don't understand the dynamics of getting experience from a 10 dose combine. It seems that you can get experience from a 10 dose combine, but it peters out more quickly than normal combines of the same ingredients.

Is this a bug? Possibly. The ability to get experience from a 10 dose combine may be a feature, or it may be an unanticipated fall through condition in the code. Since it leads to experience, it's a good thing; since it prints messages that can be confusing unless you're watching extremely carefully, it might be considered a problem.

The issue that I perceive is that a point of experience from a combine for a higher level potions is != that from a 10 dose combine of those same higher level potions. E.g. at level 110, a combine of ingredients to make a 115 results in 1 point of experience, but a 10 dose combine of those potions does not. I think the game would be more consistent and less confusing if a 10 dose combine of potions above your trivial skill level would always result in a point of experience, and a 10 dose combine of potions at or below your trivial level would not.

I'll post this last paragraph to the suggestions forum for a developer to examine.

Cheers, everyone.

 

[Tarutao]

Things that would be useful:

The name of the zone you were in
The time this happened (day, time, time zone)
The specific potion you were making
Your skill level at the time



I've personally gone through every alchemy combine involving combining 10 potions into a ten-dose potion, and they all have trivial level 0. Furthermore, changing the trivial level of the 10 potion combines so that you get credit towards a skillup from it is needless. It is a basic no-fail combine that only involves the Alchemy in the sense that it is a combine done in a Mortar and Pestle. Keeping them all as they are allows non-alchemists to combine 10 single dose potions into a 10-dose potion without cause for concern.

 

[panthernoswar]

There is 1 item that gives +alchemy, but it's in bank atm so can't give you specifics but it's +2 or +3 comes from Hmal I believe