acid tongue request

Kasreyn

Kasreyn

The Nice GM
I'd like to compare:
Acid Tongue [MAGIC ITEM] [LORE ITEM] [NO DROP] Slot: RANGE Skill: Archery Atk Delay: 78 DMG: 135 Effect: Venom of the Snake (Combat, Instant) AGI: +45 DEX: +45 WIS: +20 CHA: +20 HP: +210 MANA: +190 PR: +40 Critical Strike: +3% Weight: 3.5 Size: Large Class: WAR PAL RNG SHD ROG Race: ALL Type 4 Aug Slot: Empty

with:
Masalavir, Bolt from the Dark [MAGIC ITEM] [LORE ITEM] [NO DROP] Slot: RANGE Skill: Archery Atk Delay: 62 DMG: 107 Effect: Drain Soul (Combat, Instant) Skill Mod: Archery +10% STR: +20 STA: +20 DEX: +40 WIS: +15 CHA: +15 HP: +195 MANA: +175 DR: +25 Weight: 4.2 Range: 250 Size: Large Class: WAR PAL RNG SHD ROG Race: ALL Type 4 Aug Slot: Empty

They're both solid bows but I'd like to request that acid tongue be made better. I'd like to see an archery mod on it to reduce dependence on thaz armor. Although I don't see anything wrong with the hp and stats, are they really the stats of an item a tier higher?

This might be asking too much but would it be too much to ask for AC on a bow? Whenever I'm not raiding, I'm most likely tanking and AC would be a huge boon.

Anyhow, I leave the decision up to the devs.

Yours truly,

xoxo

KAS
 
Keirga/Reinhardt said:
you forgot to mention there's no range on the bow.
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I was still able to shoot arrows so I guess that last fight was within arrow range.

I guess this item is missing it's 'wow factor'. Every other bow upgrade was like OMG GIMME. Ballista -> Flarewynd was like this; Flarewynd -> Malassvir was like this.

Maybe it's the lack of archery mod on other items (thanks eyate) but right now I don't think this bow is a MUST HAVE for rangers. Still, there seems to be a full tier upgrade for most other slots for most other classes in spires right now.
 
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You're right, I guess I was hung up on the ratio. Going through less arrows in a given time interval will be beneficial.

I think I'm going to have to parse what 10% archery mod means for me at the moment or probably roll back to using my ganzese dealie on raids-or thaz bp.
 
Could this item get str on it, yes I know there are multiple items that clearly give massive amounts of strength but as it is this item is basically a toy for anything not ranger. You could atleast be a bad rogue and equip masalvir for strength.
 
Zaela said:
There are several big Archery mod items in Ikisith. I really do want to phase out the 100% self-helping weapon-with-its-own-weapon-mod thing. I'll raise the HP on the bow at least. The way I understood it, higher damage/higher delay means something on bows due to the way they work with timing limitations and haste and whatnot, so I thought "highest damage bow in the game by a fair margin" was it's 'wow' factor.
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It will translate into fewer arrows but its dps will not go up by any more than its ratio permits. People like eustace and the guy who thinks bows should shoot two arrows at once frankly don't know what they are talking about when it comes to dps.

The 100% self-helping weapon argument makes perfect sense, however it also translates into a massive devaluation of the bow. If you have to hunt and hang on to archery mods from elsewhere, the bow itself needs to compensate in other ways to be a better item on its own.
 
The major things slow bows do are save arrows and spell cast times have a lesser impact on bow dps. Over all though, if I did the math right its only a .2% dps increase which is effectively nothing.

And still the only arch mods I have seen since PoN ear / DHK bracer are Thaz bp and gloves. There is also a 10 mod on bloodseeker (not going to use this bow long), 3 on flarewynd which is worthless cause your gonna rock 25 bowing and 3 + 5 (MQ aug) + 12 of a low tier item is still only 20, and lastly IS bow. Essentually all rangers are bound to some combination of those 4 items or they are meh. At least rogues get weapons that have the stats so they aren't using 4-7 tier old pieces.

(This is all pending what ikisith drops which I have yet to see any items. There my be some droppable meh items too)

EDIT: Forgot eternal feather, still a meh piece as it require T4/5 +12 mod to matter
 
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I was thinking about this today and could it possibly get a ratio upgrade?

going from flarewynd (Atk Delay: 59 DMG: 100) to malassvir (Atk Delay: 62 DMG: 107) is a 0.03 ratio upgrade whereas the next step up: malassvir to acid tongue (Atk Delay: 78 DMG: 135) is less than 0.01 ratio upgrade.

If this gets compared with things like daggers:

mercy (Atk Delay: 26 DMG: 24) to render (Atk Delay: 18 DMG: 17), rogues got a 0.02 ratio upgrade while they get to keep their 10% backstab weapon even though you're phasing out mods on weapons.

This probably sounds trite but ratios on bows for rangers is just as important as ratios on daggers for rogues.

I also don't want to sound naggy, but please consider this argument for upgrading acid tongue as well.

Yours truly,

xoxo

KAS
 
Kasreyn said:
I was thinking about this today and could it possibly get a ratio upgrade?

going from flarewynd (Atk Delay: 59 DMG: 100) to malassvir (Atk Delay: 62 DMG: 107) is a 0.03 ratio upgrade whereas the next step up: malassvir to acid tongue (Atk Delay: 78 DMG: 135) is less than 0.01 ratio upgrade.

If this gets compared with things like daggers:

mercy (Atk Delay: 26 DMG: 24) to render (Atk Delay: 18 DMG: 17), rogues got a 0.02 ratio upgrade while they get to keep their 10% backstab weapon even though you're phasing out mods on weapons.

This probably sounds trite but ratios on bows for rangers is just as important as ratios on daggers for rogues.

I also don't want to sound naggy, but please consider this argument for upgrading acid tongue as well.

Yours truly,

xoxo

KAS
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The ratio is less significant because your bow is getting affected by more haste. Backstab cannot be affected by haste past a certain point regardless of weapon delay and thus alot of daggers have backstab mods/better ratio bumps.
 
Otcho said:
The ratio is less significant because your bow is getting affected by more haste. Backstab cannot be affected by haste past a certain point regardless of weapon delay and thus alot of daggers have backstab mods/better ratio bumps.
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???

Even assuming ranged attack has a minimum delay of 10, and you have goe, bard overhaste, and 47% worn haste, a bow would have to have a delay of 24 to not gain the full benefit of the haste. 25 delay would gain the full benefit if you didn't click any additional overhaste clickies.
 
also, not 100% sure w/o parsing this but with the worse stats, the new bow may actually be worse than the IS bow even with max archery. Dont have my parse equivalent for high end bows and hidden str any more.
 
Zaela, it shouldn't matter that the range attack button only pops in full-second increments, if you push the key when the bow is ready it WILL shoot even though the button hasn't popped. If you want to test it, give yourself a xardon's ray gun. The actual minimum delay for bows firing is around a half second or so, anything lower than that eats arrows without firing.

You'd need to parse to be absolutely sure, but my understanding is that if you're waiting for your client to let your range attack button pop, you're short-changing your dps.
 
FOLLOW UP

informal parses on mobs in remnants:
these parses should be just bowing, the proc on the bow and quiver of cold.

malassvir 500 dps over 10 mobs
acid tongue 646 dps over 11 mobs
acid tongue (with bowguide crook to max archery mod) 678 dps over 10 mobs

these parses are fairly short but I think I can glean a thing or two here.
1) a better ratio probably means more damage output on a bow
2) maybe archery mod isn't OMG HOLY SHIT. it still might be, I don't know.

I should probably spawn a 1 billion hp white con and shoot arrows at it for an hour for a more formal parse.

Also, I've noticed that a dot proc on a weapon won't overwrite itself. I've noticed this before on flamescar. I'm not sure if this makes a DD proc intrinsically better than a dot proc over time, but at first glance it does.

For example:
Malassvir has a dd proc for 338 base (this is a lifetap, while nice, is another issue)
Acid Tongue has a dot proc for 40 dd plus 104 over 4 ticks for a total of 456 base.

Without knowing the proc rate these numbers will be inaccurate but the duration on the dot effectively reduces it's potential dps. Since 4 ticks is 24 seconds, and I can get about 8 shots off in 24 seconds, if malassvir procs more than once, it's proc is a more worthwhile proc. My parses show that this happened in 3 out of my 10 fights with malassvir, each time within 24 seconds of each other. So, I guess, sometimes, dot procs are better, and sometimes dd procs are better.

Anyhow, I'm not sure what all this means. Please critique my methods and/or my reasoning. I'd still like to do that parse on a 1 billion hp for an hour but I don't think I will without auto range attack.
 
Kasreyn said:
Anyhow, I'm not sure what all this means. Please critique my methods and/or my reasoning. I'd still like to do that parse on a 1 billion hp for an hour but I don't think I will without auto range attack.
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it means the acid tongue is a hell of a dps upgrade, regardless of proc or archery mod
 
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I'm not prepared to say that. If 0.02 ratio translates to roughly 150 dps then we'd better be careful how much better bows get.

I'm more prepared to say that on shorter fights, the higher damage on acid tongue translates to bigger crits and less shots required to bring down the mob. This is why I'd like to parse over a longer period of time.
 
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