A case for adjusting some over-nerfed items

[Silosobi]

Item nerfs cause lots of bitching and moaning, but they are done for valid reasons, and usually set items at a more appropriate level than they were before. On occasion though, nerfs are a little over-zealous and render an item that was very good border-line useless(or just not appropriate for its difficulty).

The single biggest complaint about staff I hear from players is about the over-nerfing of high tier items, andI hear more complaining about staff during the last year than i did in the 4 prior. That in itself is not a reason to change things, but I think under all that bitching and moaning are some valid concerns. This thread is for giving the numbers and suggesting change on items that are clearly out-of-whack in their current state. I am most familiar with caster items so I may miss some other stuff. Anyone else is welcome to post items, but lets please try to keep this for cases that obviously need change.

First item: 2H Bane of the Fallen God

This is the 2H version of the INT caster 4.3 weapon. The stats are appropriate, but some time ago the weapon went from being 30%DI for 5% damage per cast to 30%DI for 10% damage per cast. Essentially, the cost for using the item doubled without any gain. It is useless in any relatively on-tier raid or 6 man content, and I have not even heard of anyone using exp, because it is a massive cost for only 6% extra damage.

There are a few options that would make this valid again. It could gain DI9, I have made other threads highlighting the strange delay in upgrades to tier 9 focus effects, and this being a premier int weapon, taking up two slots, and being quite hard to obtain (just a few days a group with several people who had beat the encounter in the past took 7 hours to kill it). Another option would be to bump the damage up to like 40% and leave the 10% damage component. This would make it a sort of exp-toy, at 10% damage per spell cast, it retains a huge drawback, and would still see very limited use IMO. At the very least, it should be given DI8 and the 5 evocation of the 1H version. This is lacking, and an arguably better 2h comes from two tiers lower in the Spires Twins, but when I finally got this thing after ~30 hours of learning and bashing my head against the fight, it was a huge deal to me. I would hate for new players to come in, and obviously already have a spires 2h and this thing will just have no use.

 

[Silosobi]

March of Strife

This is a tier 13 stat stick for PRI/SEC on mostly casters/bard. It has a neat clicky, but that adds no power to the item (I've clicked it once ever I think). The draw to this item used to be that it had channeling and 330 mana. It lost both of those, and while it gets used because its two tiers higher than most of the items its replacing, it is pretty clearly lacking. Items like Abyss(T10?) 235hp/275mana and numerous other T9-11 items with similar stats make this T13 from an epic, massively difficult boss fight just feel super lacking.

Its really hard to suggest changes here, as nothing will quite benefit all listed classes the way channeling did, but I think for starters a buff to 300/300 stats (or 275/325) would seem more in line with difficulty. It needs a little something else though, say 5evo or 5conj, even 5div. Some elemental damage might fit the bill as well. 50 magic or fire damage would seem appropriate for the item/boss.

 

[Silosobi]

The Matron's Grasp

T13 Gloves. I think/hope these are on the bracket to be looked at after monk changes, but a quick glance reveals that these are only a sliver better than the Grobb Undercity gloves, which is absurd given the tier difference.

I think simply bumping the proc rate on these up to about 4.5% would make them more viable without any risk of making them too good, seems like a fast/easy/safe change that would make a really sought-after item more viable in the intern while the bigger picture is looked at and more careful/extensive changes are worked on since we all know that can take a long time.

 

[Dinadass]

Slaar did say that h2h gloves in general are gonna get looked at once the new monk changes are done so hopefully that takes care of Matron's Grasp.

Bane and March to Strife were both over-nerfed, and it's kind of weird because when I think of "overpowered t12/13 items" neither of their original versions really seemed to qualify. Then again we also saw the t13 rez clicky nerfed for no apparent reason so who knows.

 

[Moraelintz]

First item: 2H Bane of the Fallen God

This is the 2H version of the INT caster 4.3 weapon. The stats are appropriate, but some time ago the weapon went from being 30%DI for 5% damage per cast to 30%DI for 10% damage per cast. Essentially, the cost for using the item doubled without any gain. It is useless in any relatively on-tier raid or 6 man content, and I have not even heard of anyone using exp, because it is a massive cost for only 6% extra damage.

There are a few options that would make this valid again. It could gain DI9, I have made other threads highlighting the strange delay in upgrades to tier 9 focus effects, and this being a premier int weapon, taking up two slots, and being quite hard to obtain (just a few days a group with several people who had beat the encounter in the past took 7 hours to kill it). Another option would be to bump the damage up to like 40% and leave the 10% damage component. This would make it a sort of exp-toy, at 10% damage per spell cast, it retains a huge drawback, and would still see very limited use IMO. At the very least, it should be given DI8 and the 5 evocation of the 1H version. This is lacking, and an arguably better 2h comes from two tiers lower in the Spires Twins, but when I finally got this thing after ~30 hours of learning and bashing my head against the fight, it was a huge deal to me. I would hate for new players to come in, and obviously already have a spires 2h and this thing will just have no use.

2H Bane

I think this should stay as it was initially, and lose most or all of it's hp/mana. That would be a good trade off, lose 5% of max hps in order to do more damage. Since there is no larger DI in the game would still make this a wanted item and used, but not for everything. I don't think it would be used as much on high ae fights where things can go south in a hury.

1H Bane

I like it not having DI on this item, will have trade offs so you can't have either 2H for DI or 1H for DI and not need it elsewhere. I think if it had some elemental damge and maybe more evocation would help to make it more useful over the spires 2H but unless there is a really good secondary the 2h will still be better.

 

[Moraelintz]

March of Strife

This is a tier 13 stat stick for PRI/SEC on mostly casters/bard. It has a neat clicky, but that adds no power to the item (I've clicked it once ever I think). The draw to this item used to be that it had channeling and 330 mana. It lost both of those, and while it gets used because its two tiers higher than most of the items its replacing, it is pretty clearly lacking. Items like Abyss(T10?) 235hp/275mana and numerous other T9-11 items with similar stats make this T13 from an epic, massively difficult boss fight just feel super lacking.

Its really hard to suggest changes here, as nothing will quite benefit all listed classes the way channeling did, but I think for starters a buff to 300/300 stats (or 275/325) would seem more in line with difficulty. It needs a little something else though, say 5evo or 5conj, even 5div. Some elemental damage might fit the bill as well. 50 magic or fire damage would seem appropriate for the item/boss.

I like the idea of bumping this some. Right now it is basically a bagged clicky for when people want to run faster. I think if you look at the classes on the item conjuration mod would be pretty cool, and maybe even consider throwing a focus effect on there.

 

[fuwok]

I want to ask for two very old nerfs to be reconsidered: during the time of Grimar, both the sword from the Vah quest http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Curveblade_of_the_Malik and the sword from Melek Taus http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Divus_Sicarius saw big nerfs. Both of these weapons got hit hard and made basically booby prizes/the loot you don't want to drop.

I think the curveblade could use some more ac and hp, plus maybe a higher proc rate.

Divus, maybe better ratio and adding a stun or some other supplemental effect to the proc.

 

[Tevinter]

March of Strife

This is a tier 13 stat stick for PRI/SEC on mostly casters/bard. It has a neat clicky, but that adds no power to the item (I've clicked it once ever I think). The draw to this item used to be that it had channeling and 330 mana. It lost both of those, and while it gets used because its two tiers higher than most of the items its replacing, it is pretty clearly lacking. Items like Abyss(T10?) 235hp/275mana and numerous other T9-11 items with similar stats make this T13 from an epic, massively difficult boss fight just feel super lacking.

Its really hard to suggest changes here, as nothing will quite benefit all listed classes the way channeling did, but I think for starters a buff to 300/300 stats (or 275/325) would seem more in line with difficulty. It needs a little something else though, say 5evo or 5conj, even 5div. Some elemental damage might fit the bill as well. 50 magic or fire damage would seem appropriate for the item/boss.

i made a post about this item, eisley made a post about this item, this would be the third post about this item. hopefully you have better luck than we did

 

[Vitali]

I think the curveblade could use some more ac and hp, plus maybe a higher proc rate.

I thought proc rates across the board were going to be looked at after riposte nerf, but I dont think I ever heard of anything being bumped up afterward.

 

[Pecannius]

I want to ask for two very old nerfs to be reconsidered: during the time of Grimar, both the sword from the Vah quest http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Curveblade_of_the_Malik and the sword from Melek Taus http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Divus_Sicarius saw big nerfs. Both of these weapons got hit hard and made basically booby prizes/the loot you don't want to drop.

I think the curveblade could use some more ac and hp, plus maybe a higher proc rate.

Divus, maybe better ratio and adding a stun or some other supplemental effect to the proc.

I had always been confused about these 2 drops. They seemed really underwhelming compared to the other stuff on their respective loot tables.

 

[Thade]

Both of those items were very very good when they were first acquired. Divus was certainly too good, considering it made most tanks nearly as good dps as an actual dps on a single target, which was pretty silly. However in its current form its really bad. Curveblade of malik was good, but it had way worse stats than everything else, and only the proc made up for it. After the proc nerf the weapon was basically useless.

 

[Silosobi]

I definitely could see a buff for Curveblade. I was in a guild that progressed naturally up to the point we could kill Vah, and even with some undertiered people, nobody ever really wanted the Curveblade. The vah event/loot is really cool, because of how limited it is, so I feel like the items should at least be viable on tier, and most seem good, but that Curveblade is just bad. Divus isnt so bad IMO, the proc could probably see a little boost, but overall it seems okay to me.

 

[Silosobi]

Focus of the Possessor

This is an item that was desirable almost entirely for its channeling. It is one of only two CE4s in the game, so some players may use it for that, but a focus effect is not a reason for an item to be lacking in just about every other way. Compare to Sanctum or Spires neck. It doesn't need a ton, but +20hp +10mana +2FT would put it at a more appropriate place in caster neck progression IMO.

 

[burt6]

Darkened Galaxy Etched Bone.

This item used to have no cast time just an internal Cooldown. It was given a cast time of .5 seconds. This may not seem like much but it means that the item can no longer be clicked during combat by melee for extra dps (a very small amount to begin with). It means that instead of meleeing now you are casting and you end up with a small net DPS LOSS in stead of a gain.

Also it means that people who were using it to help pull or tag monsters now can't do it without stopping which is also another huge nerf for some classes. I think this item was really completely fine before and not even best in slot( prenerf) off a tier 13 sanctum boss so this change always really confused me. I would suggest it be reverted back to it's prenerf state of instant click, if the dmg from the clicky is too high then nerf that and not the cast time. The instant click gave it a lot of fun utility for pulling and let you use it for dps as was originally intended. And again we were already talking about a dinky amount of dps for a t13 item. It would literally be better as a 1 dmg instant clicky than what the effect does now. (at least for monks)

If clicky dmg is too hard to balance then just remove the effect and throw some ferocity and bane dmg on it. there is a huge lack of ferocity in t13.

 

[Moraelintz]

Darkened Galaxy Etched Bone.

This item used to have no cast time just an internal Cooldown. It was given a cast time of .5 seconds. This may not seem like much but it means that the item can no longer be clicked during combat by melee for extra dps (a very small amount to begin with). It means that instead of meleeing now you are casting and you end up with a small net DPS LOSS in stead of a gain.

Also it means that people who were using it to help pull or tag monsters now can't do it without stopping which is also another huge nerf for some classes. I think this item was really completely fine before and not even best in slot( prenerf) off a tier 13 sanctum boss so this change always really confused me. I would suggest it be reverted back to it's prenerf state of instant click, if the dmg from the clicky is too high then nerf that and not the cast time. The instant click gave it a lot of fun utility for pulling and let you use it for dps as was originally intended. And again we were already talking about a dinky amount of dps for a t13 item. It would literally be better as a 1 dmg instant clicky than what the effect does now. (at least for monks)

If clicky dmg is too hard to balance then just remove the effect and throw some ferocity and bane dmg on it. there is a huge lack of ferocity in t13.

That item is perfectly fine where it is. It is now not as useful for some classes. Also should not take Dmg away and make it instant would net in a dps downgrade overall and decrease desirability for most.

 

[Silosobi]

Darkened Galaxy Etched Bone.

stuff...

While I really do agree with everything you have said here, this is one of those items that even after nerf is still useful. I disagree with the nerf, and there are a number of alternatives I would rather see (lower damage+0cast, high damage+high recast, more of other stats, etc) it clearly remains a desirable item for a lot of people even if I personally don't like it.

There are a lot of items in that category, that I really think deserve change, and any numerical analysis of power gain would show a clear lacking for a large number of T13 items, but I am trying to focus in this thread only on the items that are so obviously in need of change that nobody can really disagree. I think if we focus on those worst cases, they stand a much higher chance of actually seeing a dev come in and make some changes.

 

[Dinadass]

Taesh ring is a pretty big dps upgrade if you're good about fitting it between spells or 2h melee rounds, but it's also pretty goddamn annoying (at least I think it is, other people probably like the added button mashing to make combat a bit more complex).

It wasn't ever really a great pulling/tagging item because of its short range though, plus doing enough damage to certain trash or exp mobs that they'd summon you.

 

[burt6]

The Matron's Grasp

T13 Gloves. I think/hope these are on the bracket to be looked at after monk changes, but a quick glance reveals that these are only a sliver better than the Grobb Undercity gloves, which is absurd given the tier difference.

I think simply bumping the proc rate on these up to about 4.5% would make them more viable without any risk of making them too good, seems like a fast/easy/safe change that would make a really sought-after item more viable in the intern while the bigger picture is looked at and more careful/extensive changes are worked on since we all know that can take a long time.

Matrons grasp REALLY REALLY REALLY should be the best DPS option for monks, they are a rare drop off pretty much the hardest raid boss that has been killed so far and to use them you have to forgo two big stat slots. I don't know if they were balanced originally but they definitely are not now. They need a very significant boost.

 

[Silosobi]

Taesh ring is a pretty big dps upgrade if you're good about fitting it between spells or 2h melee rounds, but it's also pretty goddamn annoying (at least I think it is, other people probably like the added button mashing to make combat a bit more complex).

It wasn't ever really a great pulling/tagging item because of its short range though, plus doing enough damage to certain trash or exp mobs that they'd summon you.

I don't know if I would call it a big dps upgrade. Its about 30 DPS if you can use it perfectly - on cooldown, and without ANY loss to meele rounds, spellgem uptime, etc. People tell me I should get one because in theory I can use it without any cost, and yes, this is true, but to do that is a big hassle, and one mistake or blip of lag that causes it to eat .5sec of spellgem uptime will counteract ~40 perfect uses of the item (just to get back to doing 0 dps instead of negative). On top of that, it would just make gameplay a constant tedious hassle to get a minuscule amount of extra dps from an item, and that is not worth it to me. It also just has poor caster stats, in a slot where I could instead have 10 divination, or my magic focus, both with better raw stats.

As I said I'm personally not a fan of the item, and the people who do use the item do not beat me in parses, so I'm not inclined to change my stance. The fact that many people seem to like the effect as is, and think it powerful, though, make it hard to justify a change. The other items in this thread, however, are pretty clear cut cases that obviously need a serious buff or overhaul.

 

[Silosobi]

The Lightning Primer:

This is a tier 13(maybe toned down to T12 now?) item with no unusual attributes to justify the lack of hp.

Everything else about the item seems normal, it could be a good alternative for a magic focus, or to get some extra evocation, but gaining no hit points from primary+secondary is a pretty massive stat loss, and there is just nothing about the item that makes it worthwhile considering that loss.

I've seen a few of these drop, and never did anyone want to use it. Even the clicky is of questionable usefulness, being a much weaker version of the Monstro Hat(Give us a longer cooldown bigger PBAE nuke, that is worth casting in PBAE situations, but restricted by cooldown)

Average hp/mana for these slots at this tier seems to be about 500hp and 550mana. I think if it were bumped up to 400 or 450 hp (since its mana is above average) this would be a good item, and would get used depending on what focus/stats people need. The way it is now, its hard to see any raid force capable of doing the encounter actually putting the item to use.

Compare this to a Spires Twins 2H, which is unquestionably lower tier, even if the fight got easier. Spire has better focus, more desirable elemental damage, a nice proc that can actually add free dps, same skill mod, 100 less mana, but 350 hp!. Even just stick 350hp (and maybe a better clicky) on this, and it could have a niche, but the way it is now, is just totally outclasses by numerous item combos from 1-2 tiers lower.