Morality and Ethics

Just for the sake of having an open ended topic about anyone's personal views concerning morality within Dalaya as well as discussions over what constitutes the 'correct' solution to any number of given problems from an ethical standpoint. For example: The Erudite citizens are opposed to kobold living so near that there's clashes between the two populations. It is a given that the kobold are very bestial in nature however it can also be argue that they have a viable, albeit primitive, culture as well as a rudementery knowledge of the arcane. The point for this example is simple. Even if the kobold population needs to be pushed back further from Erudine for saftey reasons when do precautionary measures go too far?

Power defines morality.

I think we're okay killing the doggies until SoDPETA materializes.

So then, in your view, it is morally justifiable in this example to send wave after wave of adventurer in to do the dirty work of clearing out the kobold 'problem' simply because you're physicly able to?

Because of the fact that there are always more Kobolds no matter how many adventurer waves are sent in after them, once must conclude that were the adventurer waves not sent in, there would be an imbalance as the population of kobolds skyrockets thus causing over-population ergo starvation ergo death ergo disease ergo likely extinction of the Kobold presence. With great power comes great responsibility; the people of Erudin have the responsibility to see that the Kobolds are continuously killed in the interest of the Kobolds' longevity.

I'd rather destroy the Erudites myself. They're snobs who sit in their ivory tower spitting down on the kobolds. Bastards.

calaran said:

Because of the fact that there are always more Kobolds no matter how many adventurer waves are sent in after them, once must conclude that were the adventurer waves not sent in, there would be an imbalance as the population of kobolds skyrockets thus causing over-population ergo starvation ergo death ergo disease ergo likely extinction of the Kobold presence. With great power comes great responsibility; the people of Erudin have the responsibility to see that the Kobolds are continuously killed in the interest of the Kobolds' longevity.

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Actually it'd go something more along the lines of 'population continues to grow till equelibrium is reached either by a massive dieoff, migration, or splintering of the original population'. However I like that line of reasoning save for the fact that the only responsability we have in this is because there happens to be a major settlement of a race we consider sentient. This of course brings up the question of wether the more bestial humanoid(funny we use that term given there are plenty of nonhuman races...but eh if i remember humans came first so nayyy) races qualify as truely intelligant and only lack an education or wether they are at their maximum reasoning capasity.

Maybe it would be wise to pursue your line of querying as to the sentience of various races. Maybe somewhere on the continent of Odus, the Erudites could oversee the establishment of a rescue program where several (10's? 100's?) young Kobolds are removed from the violent tribal surroundings of the Warrens and an attempt to educate them could be made, aiming at the end goal of a somewhat more civilized Kobold nation somewhere on Odus? Perhaps if they were removed from their surroundings and given the proper stimulii and tools, they may make themselves into a peaceful nation (or at least a warlike nation that chooses to side WITH Erudin rather than against it?).

If this could be done, it would be a testament both to the intelligence of the 'lesser' species (dare I say races?) of Dalaya, as well as an affirmation of the fact that social surroundings and availability of resources and education dictate the level of civilization far more than the genetic makeup of the creature.

Perhaps it would be impossible or undesirable by the Erudite community as a whole, but it certainly would be an interesting experiment in socioeconomic stimulii.

A rather large scale idea but that would be the only practical way of actually testing the theiory of wether 'lesser' species can attain more given different rearing methods. Only when the question of wether the kobold/goblin/ect species've been shown by such lengthy measures to be merely highly cunning animals could anyone attempt the following:

Testing.

You know, test a new potion or brewing concoction on a select indavidual to see what affects it would have before allowing people to try it. Trouble is, and I'm only making a guess at this one, the immune systems these 'lesser' species posess would likely render any results as either meaningless or unreliable. Even if such results were to be proven reliable there is still the ethical question around the concept of testing on something that, mind you this would only come about if they are proven to be unintelligant, even while being little better than an animal is too man-like for the comfort of those of more genteel constitutions.

Well, first of all, I have a problem with classing the kobolds as "lesser" because they are more primitive. Secondly, the concept of stealing their children away, stripping them of their culture, and making them over into something they aren't is equally repugnant.

However, when it comes to hunting the Kobold, there is one thing to consider. My understanding from talking to the guards outside of Erudin is that the Kobolds have already made attacks on the city. It wasn't a matter of the Eruidites attacking them because they are too close, but because they, themselves, have been under attack. So, as long as the Kobolds, regardless of their level of civilization and culture, continue to attack Erudin, then they will be attacked in return.

If the kobolds were allowed to keep their own culture and not be fit into the mold of "civilization" in the grander sense the results may be truly startling. It is a given that they have some capacity (however, limited) for magic. Given this it stands to reason that they have at least some higher brain functionality extending beyond just the range of the colloquially known "reptilian brain" (no slight meant to the iksar, as they obviously display higher brain functions). As such they should be capable of any amount of learning possible for a tribal human subject. While their brain capacity has not been established, should we assume it is of average capacity among the races, (though pending further examination, as well as operant conditioning exercises with them, as they tend to attack things much stronger than them even though it is almost certain that they will die. This points possibly to an underlying resistance to conditioning that may suggest the presence of an underlying antisocial personality disorder among the race as a whole) then the question is not what can they learn, but what use would they put it towards. Should we make a naturalistic effort, raising orphaned kobolds with the help of an enchanter as to make it's surrogate parents appear as kobolds, with serious study of the underlying culture in order to maintain and preserve it the results may be fairly interesting.

vistachiri said:

as they tend to attack things much stronger than them even though it is almost certain that they will die. This points possibly to an underlying resistance to conditioning that may suggest the presence of an underlying antisocial personality disorder among the race as a whole)

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So kobolds are like MMORPG players you mean?

Babs said:

Well, first of all, I have a problem with classing the kobolds as "lesser" because they are more primitive. Secondly, the concept of stealing their children away, stripping them of their culture, and making them over into something they aren't is equally repugnant.

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What, for the love of Dalaya, is a children?

jlapier said:

Babs said:

Well, first of all, I have a problem with classing the kobolds as "lesser" because they are more primitive. Secondly, the concept of stealing their children away, stripping them of their culture, and making them over into something they aren't is equally repugnant.

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What, for the love of Dalaya, is a children?

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child
n. pl. chil·dren

1. A person between birth and puberty.
2.
1. An unborn infant; a fetus.
2. An infant; a baby.
3. One who is childish or immature.
4. A son or daughter; an offspring.

I believe they are livestock primarily bred to do dishes and mow the lawn.

My view on the subject, is that all life is the way it is. Humans rose from clans spread out over the old continent to rise into what is a semblance of one nation today. Iksar, even though fleeing their once homelands, have seemingly regrouped into a small nation here in the old lands as well. I believe if a race was meant to come to power as say, Humans, or say the Iksar, then they would. In this belief, I like to think of it as if they can, then they will. If they don't have the willpower to do so then they won't.

Out of curiosity does anybody know if the garments/equipment generally found on Kobold/Goblin/ect corpses were crafted 'in house' or if they were stolen off unfortunates who happened to get too close? I ask because thats always been a sore spot with me. If they're supposed to be so much more primitive and animalistic how would they have gear that, depending on when you go through these places, is comperable if not in some cases better than, what you would find in more civilized segments of the world?

Well, listening to everyone else I have my own do's and don't's.

But personally, I find the Kobold cuter then the erudites so i spare their lifes unless it calls time to defend my weakened form.

But.... Both Erudites and Kobolds are equal to me, both good game for my theifing fingers

My personal thoughts on the matter would be that kobold culture would more resemble that of a tribal arrangement. They simply do not need/want what we term as civilization. As for their hostility, if a couple hundred adventurers rampaged through every few days and killed a bunch of your buddies wouldn't you be kinda pissed too? Not to mention all their governmental officers usually end up being camped. Really, how is a culture supposed to advance like that. Now the kobold's in sorcs are a bit of a different matter as they are much much more powerful than their cousins. Though who knows why. Personally though I would like to see them advance just a bit further, perhaps develop a banking system and a system of trade such as the goblins of red sun mines have. That at least would be good for them. Then they could focus on making outside alliances to strengthen their own culture instead of just attempting to repel invaders constantly while slowly stagnating in a downward spiral of war.

THREAD NECROMANCY GO!

Due to my...isolation from the general state of the world I now have a seconed question to ask. If you have the power to change things, yet do not for whatever reasons, does that make you any less of a person? I ask because several...health concerns led me to take a life of solitude till they were resolved.

Damned spooks wouldn't leave me alone....