Endurance system: BST

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A suggestion to myself and/or looking for opinions.

Since the Warrior revamp I've been slowly pondering replacing the Endurance-draining persistent-effects style system with unique Endurance bar using systems for each melee class. The style system is a little old and kind of restrictive and won't fit really well if we ever upgrade the client anyway.

Since another thread made me start thinking about Beastlords and because as a melee DPS class with no real DPS style or any other style that really helps them perform their role they don't really have much to lose, I thought they'd be a good place to look first.

Since they already have spells I don't really think they need any active abilities that use Endurance, really. Instead, I'm thinking of the Endurance bar as a resource that slowly builds up in battle and gives the Beastlord a burst of strength when it finally reaches 100%.

Since "connection with pet" is kind of their thing, I'm thinking that the build up would largely be through the Beastlord's pet. Naturally, it would start from 0. For the most basic and consistent increase I'm thinking that it would go up whenever the Beastlord's pet lands one of its buff procs on a target. Off the top of my head, say 3% per proc.

More interesting and quick, though, would be increases whenever the pet takes damage and whenever the Beastlord heals it for damage. Let's say 0.5% Endurance for every 1% of HP lost by the pet and 0.25% for every 1% of HP restored by heals from the pet's owner.

When Endurance finally reaches 100%, the Beastlord experiences a surge of spiritual power, lowering their hate on any hatelists they are currently on by 20% and giving them bonus haste equivalent to their level (i.e. 65% at 65) for a few seconds--the exactly length would be based on their max endurance value. (It would possibly only deduct Endurance when they swing a weapon and do so scaled to weapon delay, to make sure that slow 2H weapons don't get screwed out of a full swing like it may if the duration was explicitly x number of seconds. Also lets the Beastlord save up their haste burst if they really want to.)

Any procs from the pet or damage sustained by the pet etc would extend the duration of the haste mode. When the Beastlord finally hits 0 Endurance haste mode would end and the whole thing would start over. For ease of use points Endurance would not drain out of combat as it does for Warriors. However, if the Beastlord's pet ever dies, their Endurance would automatically drop to 0 and they would obviously have no way to build it until they get a pet up again.


Maybe not the greatest idea, but it would make their soloing more interesting through the lower levels, and could be interesting now and then in raids, particularly in situations where there are AEs. A savvy Beastlord might put their pet up in front to aux tank and eat a few easily-healable ripostes as well.

Just an idea though. If there are any people who do or have played Beastlords around any more maybe they could offer an opinion. Otherwise, go nuts.
 
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Any addition to beastlords would be a boon. I've played one from 1-65 and into some early raid content, leveling the beastlord was a lot of fun but as an early 65 bst the problems I felt the class had were:

1)Already low dps brought lower any time you have to pet heal (not the hugest issue)

2)Annoyingly low duration buffs

3)No continuation of the pet proc line for later content / non-aggro version (just seems like there is a lot of that could been done here beyond incremental damage increase + different resist)

4)Low to non-existent incentive to use a 2h until you're all AA'd up or obtain one with gross enough stats

5)No real dps stance beyond /s 2 (as you mentioned prior)

6)No reliable way to shrug aggro aside from turning off attack etc

Some of these problems sort themselves out as you progress in power, some don't. I'm sure someone with more experience using the class can weigh in here.
 
Well for them gaining endurance or w/e for pet taking a % of damage, what about a runic2 pet with like 30k hps?
 
First of all, I appreciate devs taking a look at the class. I love my beastlord, but I can really understand why it's so rarely played and even less in progression raids. Gerick has already commented on a few of beastlords' issues, and I have my own, but for the sake of thread focus I'll concentrate on responding to the OP. If you want to take a look at other beastlord issues I'd be happy to go in that direction, too.

Specifically on the endurance system: my initial impression is that I think it would help beastlords when soloing, but not so much in other areas. In raids I barely ever heal my pet at all, and even then it's on fights with significant AE damage that my group healer isn't able to cover. The beastlord pet heal is too slow and has too long of a recast to be a reliable way of keeping my pet alive, so I rely on healers. The 'pet taking damage' part is interesting, but I'm not sure I want to incentivize something that takes away from a beastlord's dps and creates an extra burden on a healer or the beastlord him/herself. Aux tanking is a dangerous business for a beastlord pet pre-runic2, especially since, as you point out, this all goes away if the pet dies.

Instead, I'd propose adding perhaps 0.5 or 1% per melee crit from the beastlord or the pet (in addition to the 2% or 3% for the pet proc), so that the rewards are aligned with actually doing damage. Perhaps a smaller amount from spell crits from casters who have the cunning buff, or other melee crits from people who have savagery working.

However this works out, I'd really like to say thanks for looking at my class!
 
as one of those active beastlords on server, who has played a bst for many years, through all of the tiers and currently have his runic2 pet I thought I'd give it a try to give some feedback:

Whenever you're not soloing, and lets face it, the beastlord isn't really that amazing for a soloclass for the lower tiers (most who lvl a bst up box it with a druid or cleric), at these moments you don't really want your pet to take any damage, and some zones/mobs are actually coded so that ae dmg doesn't land on pets. The beastlord pet, at all tiers, simply doesn't get the same kind of controlled agro as a mage pet can get and thus makes for a lousy tank if there are other chars than the beastlord there.
This would make me say that tying this endurance gain to the pet taking damage would be a bad idea.

The idea of tying the dmg boost to the pets performance in some way isn't a bad one, but I do think that any dmg boost should end up adding to the beastlords own dps (not that of his pet). I also think it's activation should not be tied to the pet taking dmg. Tying it to the pets dmg output in some way might be a good idea though.

When the beastlord was originally designed on SOD, he could only reach 250 skill in h2h combat. All aa's, all old items and all everything for the beastlord is designed for him (or her) using h2h weapons. Although thankfully the max skill lvls has been changed, this still lives on to some extent in itemization and in aa's.

Giving the beastlord a possibility to lower agro by this would be wonderful, making it possible to increase the dps in bursts would also be amazing. Would it be possible to give the beastlord a few different choices of how to utilize endurance once it has been built up and also to decide when to use it?

If so, I would like to suggest the following alternatives:

1. Increase the beastlords dps output by the overhaste you described, at the same time as agro is dumped / dramatically lowered. (this gives a boost to raiddps, without those nasty h2h weapons stealing agro)
2. Increase the beastlord pet's dmg output at the same time as the pet's agrogeneration or chance to successfully taunt is INCREASED. (this will help for soloing beastlords leveling up as it will make the beastlord pet a better tank allowing the beastlord to in some way control it's agro)
3. Allow both the beastlord and the beastlord pet to gain the abilitity to strike multiple foes with melee hits at once! The beastlord is currently one of the few classes that doesn't have a way to to do any sort of ae dmg. This change would greatly improve what a beastlord brings to the table in an ae group.

Another suggestion for how this stamina could be built up, would be to let it build up as characters in the beastlords group does dmg. This would be interesting and would mean that if the groupmembers slack, endurance flow would be slow, but if the group goes dps crazy the bst will find himself with an almost endless endurance-supply. (This could be tied to the cunning line of spells, but if so it wouldn't implement for lower lvl bsts as we get wrath of the beast at lvl 30 and cunning at lvl 63). This would also mean that a solo bst wouldn't get as much endurance though since then it would only be built up from himself and pet.
 
Since another thread made me start thinking about Beastlords and because as a melee DPS class with no real DPS style or any other style that really helps them perform their role they don't really have much to lose, I thought they'd be a good place to look first.

Since they already have spells I don't really think they need any active abilities that use Endurance, really. Instead, I'm thinking of the Endurance bar as a resource that slowly builds up in battle and gives the Beastlord a burst of strength when it finally reaches 100%.

Ohh, thought I should respond to this as well. The only stances we have (except s 2) is s 7 and s 5. S7 - spiritual empathy, can be quite useful at times since we don't have agro control, when suddenly finding ourselves being beaten on it allows us a way to survive until a healer notices that we're being killed, by letting our pet (that we can heal ourselves) take half the dmg.
s5 flurry of blows, do not work with twohanders but it does increase dps some, on some targets.. but yeah in the big picture it wouldn't be much of a loss, and as for s7, if whatever we get instead helps our dps and agro situation, losing it wouldn't be a huge deal. The bst isn't really made to be a tank.
 
Woha Glamrin, I hope I misread the "losing /s 7 wouldnt be a huge deal" cus it would, I use /s 7 a LOT, since I have a lot of aggro a lot of times and I use my beast as tank for groups/farms and for thoose the /s 7 is unreplaceable in some situations. Also for soloing /s 7 is one of the best things for a beast imo, it has saved beastlordass so many times.

But we do need something that helps us reduce aggro, I have to watch my aggro by not doing stuff more or less and that pretty much sucks.

Pet taking damage, well my pet shouldnt take any damage really unless its a AE heavy fight Im engaging... And with druidhots and stuff on raids and groups, the heals gets less and less common for me to cast on my pet... (Also with runic pet with their extreme HP they dont really need heals at all from what I have heard... Though it is like 98% of the beastlords on server that doesnt have the runic2 pet so...)

As Glamrin posted, beastlords are "stuck" in the h2h business, and as a beast that has had more piercing and 2hb weaps during my time that sucks. Look over that since as far as I know, best beastlord weapon in game is a 2hb nowadays. (From Tur Ruj Brutalist's Bludgeon.) (Look over things like the Seeker augs for example)

Our spells cost a lot of mana, not only the runic pet swarm but also dots and DDs and the fact that our gear mostly have critstrike and such on makes it hard to regain mana. A little more mana/FT to balance wouldnt be a bad thing either. (I have worked really hard to get more FT and mana with my gear to balance it out, but it is still far from a ok level to be able to use the spells we have efficently.)

I think lots of people that play or have played a beastlord doesnt realize the potential the class have to its fullest. I notice a lot of beastlords that never ever uses their heal, the beastclass is amazing at beeing a dps and a healer that can both DPS and patch heal when in need. But this might be more noticable at higher tiers I guess... And at that point ppl might have gotten bored I guess.

For me the beast isn't a pure DPS class, for me it is a tank, a healer, a strong class with a decent pet that I use in so many different ways and that I wouldnt trade away for anything else.
 
some comments from an ex-player who had a BST

1. everything rorne said. I always wished for a lv65 pet proc that was unresistable also wished the pet crit tome gave it matching spell crit, but thats not really what this thread is about.

2. as Glamrin said, the pet isnt typically taking damage anyway so granting endurance off dmg/heals for it isn't *that* big of a boost, unless its planned on keeping /s 7. Most of the time my pet is taking damage its in a raid from AoEs, with most healing coming from group heals and not myself. Making it go off the pet procs primarily would be better in my opinion.

3. As for loosing the stances, /s 7 is a big one i often used soloing (with druid Runic1 it was great), some way to retain it would be great. Maybe make it a set duration/cooldown? Could also make it have that boost in endurance generation from all the damage the pet takes from sharing.

4. If you did go with pet damage/healing, how would the healing class tome work?

5. Perhaps it could also buff the pet for the duration also? Extra haste, spell crit for the proc or something

6. Some way to use it force it to go off early (say 50% endurance or higher?) with a slight penalty (-25% haste?) in addition to the shorter duration. Would let it be a little bit more flexible in its use while keeping the 100% endurance the best.

Saintonan: While giving a boost from crits would be great, it wouldn't really help out lower level players that much since crit gear isn't to common, and AAs/Tomes are 55+.

In general it sounds great, some type of Beastly Rage would be great and honestly other than /s 7 I would say that I wouldn't miss any of the other stances. I almost never used 4&6, and #5 would be much better replaced by this even if the haste amounts were equal since it would work for 2h, not increase the miss rate and you could "pause" stamina drain.
 
Woha Glamrin, I hope I misread the "losing /s 7 wouldnt be a huge deal" cus it would, I use /s 7 a LOT, since I have a lot of aggro a lot of times and I use my beast as tank for groups/farms and for thoose the /s 7 is unreplaceable in some situations. Also for soloing /s 7 is one of the best things for a beast imo, it has saved beastlordass so many times.

This is true, but if we got some effects that would allow us to drop agro, and would allow us to make our pet pick up agro better, that would replace the use.
 
Have you already forgotten how weak the non runiced pets are for a beastlord, Glam?

If the beast drops aggro and pet gets it, it goes down fast.... For a runic 2 beast thats no problem, but as I said like 98% of the servers beastlords are non runiced..
 
First a question I have what type of expertise do you want a beastlord to have?

I really think beastlords could use a change. An idea I've had was that If the pet takes damage it increases the beast lords damage, if the beastlord is taking damage it increases the pets damage. There are a lot of ways you can do this

IF Pet takes damage
Then Beastlord gains resource to use for one of several types of abilites.
+Attack speed %
+extra raw hits (Quading)
+Healing
+Proc

IF beastlord takes damage
Then pet gains the same abilities besides healing

This would make the beastlord have to manage his pet better for more gains and be more active then just auto attacking puting the pet like some one mentioned in harms way and managing it.
 
When you say "It would possibly only deduct Endurance when they swing a weapon and do so scaled to weapon delay, to make sure that slow 2H weapons don't get screwed out of a full swing like it may if the duration was explicitly x number of seconds."

Could you make sure it works with no weapons at all for those with bare handed attacks since barehanded attacks are still good viable weapon ratios?
 
Our spells cost a lot of mana, not only the runic pet swarm but also dots and DDs and the fact that our gear mostly have critstrike and such on makes it hard to regain mana. A little more mana/FT to balance wouldnt be a bad thing either. (I have worked really hard to get more FT and mana with my gear to balance it out, but it is still far from a ok level to be able to use the spells we have efficently.)

Venom of the Wild
is interesting. Comparing the original costs (2002) of the spell this appears derived from, this spells duration was halved but its base damage only increased by a third, while its mana cost was increased. So it actually does 1/5 less base damage then its original for a higher cost

Since this happens with necromancer and shaman spells as well, this appears this was a consistent method of adoption. Still the cost in comparison to Caress of Sivyana seems high, even with a hybrid inefficiency factored in. But this may have to do with spell modifiers working differently here?

This is based on data from either Scorpion Venom or Turepta Blood. Though I am assuming the spell in question was the former, as the latter was added 3 years after the introduction of the class.

This is Envenomed Bolt as a comparison.
 
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Much bigger response than I expected. Taking it slow:

1)Already low dps brought lower any time you have to pet heal (not the hugest issue)

I think it would probably be fair to make their heals cast a little faster to fit better with their melee role. Maybe -2 seconds casting time and +2 seconds reuse on their highest pet heal.

3)No continuation of the pet proc line for later content / non-aggro version (just seems like there is a lot of that could been done here beyond incremental damage increase + different resist)

I'm kind of surprised that we never thought to add any more of those when we were wracking our brains for Ikisith spells. What is their Refuge spell? If it's nothing particularly useful it could probably be a nice pet proc upgrade instead. If it is something useful, a dropped level 65 spell could also do.

Well for them gaining endurance or w/e for pet taking a % of damage, what about a runic2 pet with like 30k hps?

Could be based off of literal values instead. Maybe damage-taken-by-pet-divided-by-5: max Endurance is around 4300, if your pet takes a hit for 2500 you get at least (2500/5)/4300 = ~11.6% Endurance. The hate drop would probably have to scale with max Endurance now that I think of it since it might be more frequent with low max Endurance.

Instead, I'd propose adding perhaps 0.5 or 1% per melee crit from the beastlord or the pet (in addition to the 2% or 3% for the pet proc), so that the rewards are aligned with actually doing damage.

Could do. Probably instead of healing stuffs.

Another suggestion for how this stamina could be built up, would be to let it build up as characters in the beastlords group does dmg. This would be interesting and would mean that if the groupmembers slack, endurance flow would be slow, but if the group goes dps crazy the bst will find himself with an almost endless endurance-supply. (This could be tied to the cunning line of spells, but if so it wouldn't implement for lower lvl bsts as we get wrath of the beast at lvl 30 and cunning at lvl 63). This would also mean that a solo bst wouldn't get as much endurance though since then it would only be built up from himself and pet.

Possibly, but I don't want to make things too too complicated. I think making your gains tied to things you actually have some control over would be preferable to making it based on entirely different characters in general, though.

As for loosing the stances, /s 7 is a big one i often used soloing (with druid Runic1 it was great), some way to retain it would be great. Maybe make it a set duration/cooldown? Could also make it have that boost in endurance generation from all the damage the pet takes from sharing.

Big revamps involve some sacrifices. I know there's always going to be a strong impulse toward "okay you can buff us, but only in return for things that were useless anyway." Warriors lost one of their big mitigation styles and some of their pre-65 tanking supremacy with it in their changes. You can't expect to retain everything! But, I guess it could be retained as a special ability...

Perhaps it could also buff the pet for the duration also? Extra haste, spell crit for the proc or something

Maybe.

Some way to use it force it to go off early (say 50% endurance or higher?) with a slight penalty (-25% haste?) in addition to the shorter duration. Would let it be a little bit more flexible in its use while keeping the 100% endurance the best.

I was kind of thinking that but not sure. The hate drop would definitely have to scale if so though.

Could you make sure it works with no weapons at all for those with bare handed attacks since barehanded attacks are still good viable weapon ratios?

Of course. Fists have defined delay just like weapons.
 
Big revamps involve some sacrifices. I know there's always going to be a strong impulse toward "okay you can buff us, but only in return for things that were useless anyway." Warriors lost one of their big mitigation styles and some of their pre-65 tanking supremacy with it in their changes. You can't expect to retain everything! But, I guess it could be retained as a special ability...

That is true. When i wrote that i was thinking of how they did get to keep their lv65 stance which is what I would like for beastlords to keep, even if changed slightly. I didn't think about what warriors gave up, which isn't surprising since other than 'a bunch of stances' i dont know. I was thinking of making it a special ability, maybe lasting 30 seconds with a 3minute cooldown or something something that didn't last very long but could be used very often. Or change it into an alternative choice once the 100% endurance is hit, though it is something that you really want to be able to turn off or it's gonna get your pet killed.
 
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it but I was just reminded, kind of a general point to go along with Gerick's:

Having a Bard with Relic: Fiery Warcry of Tarhyl in the raid makes a Beastlord's Cunning of the Beast much less desirable. Cunning is bigger, yes, but it's only +7% more, for a single group, and in return for a precious buff slot.

I'm thinking Cunning could be changed to 20% spell crit chance or otherwise made to stack fully with Bard's 13% spell damage.
 
Well I'm told that will only happen with a big nerf so rather than screw over Beastlords in Bardless groups (and/or vice versa): nevermind.
 
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Maybe just reduce the straight up spell damage bonus and tack on a smaller amount of crit?

Also their refuge spell was originally a really bad Rage of the Wild (mini-splurt) upgrade but was later changed to Bitter Cold which is an upgrade to Harsh Winter, their cold DD + enhance dot damage recourse.
 
On the bst refuge spell note it might be a cool change to convert Bitter Cold into a better pet proc that works on the same principle (pet proc on mob gives recourse to bst) this could be teamed up with the pre-existing Harsh Winter.
 
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