Backstab regarding Haste/Slow

Ponden

Dalayan Adventurer
Ive got a couple issues to bring up, but first an outline of what Backstab currently does.
-----------------------
Haste:
Backstab gains haste only till a combined total of 100%. (From item or spells combined.)
Example: Glory of Enthann (77% haste) and 23% worn item haste caps. Any haste added to your character after this point has no effect on Backstab's refresh timer.

Backstab Delay averaged:
10.7 seconds with no haste
10.7 seconds with agressive style
7.7 seconds with 42% worn haste
6.3 seconds with 77% Glory of Enthann
5.6 seconds with 42% worn haste and 60% empower
5.6 seconds with 42% worn haste and 77% Glory of Enthann
5.6 seconds with 42% worn haste and 77% Glory of Enthann and 100% overcap Gift of Giantkin

------------------------
Slow:
Backstab completely ignores any haste on your character (item and spell).
Example: If you have Glory of Enthann (77% haste) And Legguards of Deception (45% worn item haste) and also have Rust (5% slow) You end up with 5% slow total.
Example 2: Auto attack works differently. With the above hastes you would still have (77+45) -5) =117% haste.

PARSES WITH STOPWATCH:

1:42 - 10 backstab delays - No haste
1:07 - 10 backstab delays - Empower 60% haste
3:02 - 10 backstab delays - Forlorn Deeds 45% slow
3:02 - 10 backstab delays - Empower60% haste and Forlorn deeds(45% slow)
3:02 - 10 backstab delays - Empower, 42% worn haste, and Forlorn deeds

Auto Attack: *no worn haste* *Hand 2 Hand weapons*

25 hits - 40 sec duration - No haste
20 hits - 40 sec duration - Forlorn Deeds
30 hits - 40 sec duration - Empower + Forlorn Deeds
46 hits - 40 sec duration - Empower

--------
Summary: Backstab parses around 55% of my total dps on Ponden. I usually have 42% worn haste, 77% Glory of Enthann and Agressive style (10% haste) for raids. Currently: 29% haste does nothing for half my damage. Also, if I am hit by a slow (1% or more) it completely cripples half of my damage.

What this means is that for spells like Gift of Giantkin a high end rogue will gain around 20% more damage.
A monk or ranger on the other hand will gain 40% more damage. (estimates based on GOE + 45% worn haste compared to DPS gain from adding in another 100% haste.) (not counting the +ATK +PROC on giantkin but i tossed the monks down 5% for flying kick which AFAIK works similar to backstab.) Which puts rogues and monks and rangers in the same DPS range in the presence of an enchanter.
I think this is broken because it means rogues, monks and rangers will do the same end dps on raids. (This is the current situation with High-end monks hitting 430-480 DPS with giantkin and rogues hitting the same.)

Again: Even if non-giantkin parses are balanced between the 3 classes -- giving enchanters essentially a pro-monk/ranger and anti-rogue spell buff is not balanced!

Possible solutions:
1) Change Giantkin and Rust type spells into purely +ATK/-ATK spells. This would allow the base difference in DPS to stay between melee DPS. Drawbacks: Clerics would gain less benefit from giantkin since most of their damage is procs. Also, the +ATK for giantkin would have to be huge and possibly rediculous. And this wouldnt adresss other slow/hastespells.

2) A coding fix to enable backstab to gain or loose damage based upon the % of haste and % of slow active. Drawbacks: I dont know if this is even possible. High % slows might have the potential to let rogues frontload on the first backstab a little bit more then usual.

3) Remove the 2x damage to daggers over 13 and lower backstab damage in general. Give rogues triple attack in exchange. Drawbacks: rogues generate more agro, lessened value of a class defining ability. I personally dont like this one but it is a possible solution so I included it.

If you made it this far... congratulations and thanks for reading. This is to the best of my knowledge how current mechanics work. Its not 100% accurate and there might be typos.
 
Formula for things like this cannot be changed because our speed for backstab must sync with the client, so while your complaints are fair, there is jack all we can do.
 
What about altering the backstab formula on the backend to compensate for haste/slow?
Something along the lines of "Well hey, your actual haste is 129, but the server is treating it as 100, so you get +29% dps on this backstab swing".

Maybe d/t the reduced aggro (less swings) it could even be tempered, like say 25% instead of the 29% or w/e makes it balanced.

It seems silly to say well I know you have a 5% slow on via Rust right now.
I also know you have GoE (77), Item (45), and Aggressive (10) on right now, but well, I'm going to ignore all of that for half of your dps calculations.
 
I'm just curious, would it be possible to code it so that bane and elemental damage on weapons isn't factored in for backstabs? That way rogue daggers could have their damage increased without getting into ridiculous backstab territory.
 
soba said:
I'm just curious, would it be possible to code it so that bane and elemental damage on weapons isn't factored in for backstabs? That way rogue daggers could have their damage increased without getting into ridiculous backstab territory.

Why should rogue daggers have their damage increased?
 
Wiz said:
Why should rogue daggers have their damage increased?

Well it just seems there has been a huge bottleneck on rogue dagger damage and it was assumed it was because of the effect on backstabs.If the current trend of simply lowering the dly each tier continues don't you reach a point where with haste you can't get any lower on the delay? Also I worded it poorly, I didn't mean current rogue daggers except perhaps the highest end I meant more to open up more options for item design further down the road.

Also is it possible to do what I said, or would it be a big coding problem to implement?
 
Wiz said:
Why should rogue daggers have their damage increased?

A straight increase wouldn't be good, especially since more than just rogues use daggers and the problem is strictly with backstab.

As you mentioned the complaint is valid. If we can't fix the delay, it would be nice if we could "fix" it in some other method.
It seems like the easiest thing to do would be increase the damage by the % it is getting screwed up. You'd have the 'right' dps, just in big swings instead of more but smaller.
 
soba said:
Well it just seems there has been a huge bottleneck on rogue dagger damage and it was assumed it was because of the effect on backstabs.If the current trend of simply lowering the dly each tier continues don't you reach a point where with haste you can't get any lower on the delay? Also I worded it poorly, I didn't mean current rogue daggers except perhaps the highest end I meant more to open up more options for item design further down the road.

Also is it possible to do what I said, or would it be a big coding problem to implement?

If you want more dps on daggers why not just suggest lower delays? :what:
 
Wiz said:
If you want more dps on daggers why not just suggest lower delays? :what:

soba said:
If the current trend of simply lowering the dly each tier continues don't you reach a point where with haste you can't get any lower on the delay?
 
Not exactly sure how it works, but I am pretty sure haste just gives you more attack rounds instead of lowering the delay directly. If it did the latter, it would make the delay zero at 100% and would probably cause some issues.
 
Spiritplx said:
Not exactly sure how it works, but I am pretty sure haste just gives you more attack rounds instead of lowering the delay directly. If it did the latter, it would make the delay zero at 100% and would probably cause some issues.
wow, no
i've explained this and suggested it get put in tok, let me find it.
EDIT: actually yes, I dislexia'd which view of haste you were defending :(

soba said:
If the current trend of simply lowering the dly each tier continues don't you reach a point where with haste you can't get any lower on the delay?
double no, server rounds to many significant digits for attack delay, but haste itself has diminishing returns

EDIT: http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php?topic=12064.0
(and people asked me why anyone would need this since everyone already knows it :tinfoil:)
 
Wiz said:
Formula for things like this cannot be changed because our speed for backstab must sync with the client, so while your complaints are fair, there is jack all we can do.

I understand that the innate problem of backstab delay cannot be fixed, but what about my other possible suggstions? Like changing Giantkin into purely +ATK? Or giving rogues more +ATK for backstab for each point of haste over 100?
 
Ponden said:
What this means is that for spells like Gift of Giantkin a high end rogue will gain around 20% more damage.
A monk or ranger on the other hand will gain 40% more damage. (estimates based on GOE + 45% worn haste compared to DPS gain from adding in another 100% haste.) (not counting the +ATK +PROC on giantkin but i tossed the monks down 5% for flying kick which AFAIK works similar to backstab.) Which puts rogues and monks and rangers in the same DPS range in the presence of an enchanter.
I think this is broken because it means rogues, monks and rangers will do the same end dps on raids. (This is the current situation with High-end monks hitting 430-480 DPS with giantkin and rogues hitting the same.)

This paragraph has the only real problem I have with your reasoning. The bonus from giantkin is enchanter dps, not ranger/monk dps, and it doesn't particularly matter who the enchanter giantkins to get that dps.
 
Ponden said:
I understand that the innate problem of backstab delay cannot be fixed, but what about my other possible suggstions? Like changing Giantkin into purely +ATK? Or giving rogues more +ATK for backstab for each point of haste over 100?

Man, I have to admit, I totally missed your actual suggestions because I was so convinced this was just another "ask for something we can't change in the client" thread. Egg on my face.

I'll give it some thought, but understand that it would not be a change to just Backstab and that doing this might very well unbalance Rogues (who are balanced around this) and would be quite likely to result in an overall DPS nerf.
 
Wiz said:
Man, I have to admit, I totally missed your actual suggestions because I was so convinced this was just another "ask for something we can't change in the client" thread. Egg on my face.

I'll give it some thought, but understand that it would not be a change to just Backstab and that doing this might very well unbalance Rogues (who are balanced around this) and would be quite likely to result in an overall DPS nerf.

Well, couldn't haste over 100% turn into a comparative modifier on backstab damage? Whenever haste is over 100, you could do "damage *= (haste + 100) / 200" and call it a day.
 
Thinkmeats said:
Well, couldn't haste over 100% turn into a comparative modifier on backstab damage? Whenever haste is over 100, you could do "damage *= (haste + 100) / 200" and call it a day.

Well yes, that's what I would do, I'm just saying that there are other abilities also affected by haste caps in the same way, and overall this would be an upgrade of DPS for several classes and might throw off balance and result in nerfs.

A "beware of breaking the status quo" comment so to speak.
 
Wiz said:
and would be quite likely to result in an overall DPS nerf.

I understand that this could be the case. My suggestion still stand though because i think it would benefit the class overall.

Thinkmeats said:
This paragraph has the only real problem I have with your reasoning. The bonus from giantkin is enchanter dps, not ranger/monk dps, and it doesn't particularly matter who the enchanter giantkins to get that dps.

This is true to an extent. Giantkin is enchanter DPS, but thats a very one sided way of looking at it because of how it works. In the worst case scenario a raid takes an extra monk and ranger over a rogue purely because they will giantkin to the same DPS as a rogue with giantkin. In a group with an enchanter -- why include a rogue at all if a monk (who offers pretty great utility and survivability in comparision -- will end up with the same overall DPS? Giantkin is 'enchanter damage' but how it affects my class shouldn't be ignored.

Edit- and yes, there are plenty of examples where X class is better with X class then Y class. I know that alone is not a reason for changing this situation. But seeing in my mind that this was an unintentional situation due to crappy mechanics, i think its warranted.
 
Ponden said:
This is true to an extent. Giantkin is enchanter DPS, but thats a very one sided way of looking at it because of how it works. In the worst case scenario a raid takes an extra monk and ranger over a rogue purely because they will giantkin to the same DPS as a rogue with giantkin. In a group with an enchanter -- why include a rogue at all if a monk (who offers pretty great utility and survivability in comparision -- will end up with the same overall DPS? Giantkin is 'enchanter damage' but how it affects my class shouldn't be ignored.

Edit- and yes, there are plenty of examples where X class is better with X class then Y class. I know that alone is not a reason for changing this situation. But seeing in my mind that this was an unintentional situation due to crappy mechanics, i think its warranted.

This may sound assholish, but I really don't think you understand that giantkin is enchanter dps. Why on earth would a raid bring a monk or ranger because they "giantkin to the same dps" ? A giantkinned monk is doing the monk's dps PLUS the enchanter's dps. It's exactly as retarded to say "why not bring a mage over a wizard, because an enchanter nuking plus a mage nuking is the same dps as a wizard nuking?" It's very silly.

It's weird that enchanters can't get their giantkin dps by casting it on you instead of on a monk but it's got nothing to do with rogue balance.
 
Thinkmeats said:
This may sound assholish, but I really don't think you understand that giantkin is enchanter dps. Why on earth would a raid bring a monk or ranger because they "giantkin to the same dps" ? A giantkinned monk is doing the monk's dps PLUS the enchanter's dps. It's exactly as retarded to say "why not bring a mage over a wizard, because an enchanter nuking plus a mage nuking is the same dps as a wizard nuking?" It's very silly.

It's weird that enchanters can't get their giantkin dps by casting it on you instead of on a monk but it's got nothing to do with rogue balance.

As a beastlord I'd rather be in a group with 3 wizards because I can cast cunning of the beast and do a shitload more dps than if I cast the same buff on three rogues. It's the same idea.
 
Back
Top Bottom