Monk Feign Death

Max level monk feign death should not fail. Here's why:

Flavor: A monk is a master of his or her body, able to collapse on the ground and all but stop the heart's beating at a moments notice. This isn't something a master monk with years of training occasionally messes up doing.

Balance: Necromancers never fail and have both a cast time and a recast time, but have awful HP and mitigation so pulling is tricky. Shadowknights also never fail and have a recast time, but have superior mitigation and hp, making them fabulously consistent and hardy pullers. Monks feign death instantly, however this has to be timed with lag so it's not truly instantaneous, and they have a short reuse with the proper AAs. Monks are supposed to be the best at feign death, but as it stands, monks are just a bit better than the others.

Functionality: On raids, monk FD failure simply means that everyone has to wait a little longer. It doesn't increase the difficulty of any encounter, but it does mean you can't just flop forever if a split isn't working out. In any case, it seems to me that the result of having a small failure rate simply extends the break between fighting, and I believe that down time is something that everyone hopes to minimize.

Feign death should either never fail at 250, just as mend never fails at max level, or Rapid Feign should also reduce the failure rate to the point it never fails. If it is critically important that everyone's time on raids be wasted while a monk is rezzed, then introduce some item or perhaps add a stat to charm that will increase FD to the point it doesn't fail. This way, fresh monks have to suffer through occasional feign death, but monks who have spent some time at 65 can truly master FD.

Monks get to pull w/ DF on, they have invul stance for when a fail happens...that kinda evens out imo when compared to other classes FD......the DF thing is huge imo.

However I would love to see some +FD items in game on raidgear.

We've already gone through this once before.
Mend, ethereal, run away, or just take the hits..
It's instant and cant be interrupted, and you want it to never fail too? :what:

You're not really addressing the part about it failing so infrequently it's simply a nuisance. It doesn't introduce any imbalance since monks still pull. Why have it in the game at all? Ethereal stance is used to pull what you can't normally pull, not for do-overs. It takes less time to rez and rebuff than to lose exhaustion. The fact remains that FD fail is a nuisance that just lengthens down time.

If you can't pull then don't

Yeah yeah monkFDsucks.
From what I heard before on the subject , the failing rate is not high, it's just annoying when it happens. Why not picking an activeable AA (ok I can't tell much about monk AAs but let's try) that would be close to useless and has a heavy recast and turn it into an amergency FD when you see the skill has just failed ? I kinda recall a purifying AA[purify body] or something that some monks quoted as useless, but it's just a suggestion.

Dzillon said:

Yeah yeah monkFDsucks.
From what I heard before on the subject , the failing rate is not high, it's just annoying when it happens. Why not picking an activeable AA (ok I can't tell much about monk AAs but let's try) that would be close to useless and has a heavy recast and turn it into an amergency FD when you see the skill has just failed ? I kinda recall a purifying AA[purify body] or something that some monks quoted as useless, but it's just a suggestion.

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It's an unoriginal suggestion originally made by Draxx in the other thread.

It wasn't a good idea then, it still isn't a good idea now.

In fact all of these suggestions, including 95% of the original OP's suggestions, were made in various other monk threads at one time.

Manguadi said:

You're not really addressing the part about it failing so infrequently it's simply a nuisance. It doesn't introduce any imbalance since monks still pull. Why have it in the game at all?

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1) Monk FD is leaps and bounds above SK and Necro FD for splitting. If you haven't figured this out for yourself yet, and why, "you're doing it wrong".

2) Wiz doesn't want Monk FD to never fail. I agree with his reasoning.

Manguadi said:

Ethereal stance is used to pull what you can't normally pull, not for do-overs. It takes less time to rez and rebuff than to lose exhaustion.

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It's used for both.

Manguadi said:

It takes less time to rez and rebuff than to lose exhaustion.

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Maybe. But you're also not gaining any exp or killing any targets while you're rezzing and rebuffing. I thought you wanted to be efficient?

Manguadi said:

The fact remains that FD fail is a nuisance that just lengthens down time.

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If you're a good monk, it creates zero downtime, but it will add possibly 10 seconds to the total time of your pull.

If you're creating downtime for your entire group/raid because of a failed FD, "you're doing it wrong".

Thoias said:

We've already gone through this once before.
Mend, ethereal, run away, or just take the hits..
It's instant and cant be interrupted, and you want it to never fail too? :what:

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consensus:


solution:
Know that failing a FD is indeed always a possibility for you and learn what to do when this occurs. If you are dying every time, or wiping your group/raid every time, "you're doing it wrong". Instead of trying to get concrete game mechanics changed to make things easier for everyone, perhaps everyone should just learn to play better. Learn2monk.

Love,
Cinn.

Thread Over

Cinn said:

Words

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Pretty much agree 100% with Cinn on this.

ngl it would be nice to see a Tome or something that would help reduce the fail rate a tad. Maybe even have it be the reward of a difficult high end quest!

Eldorath said:

ngl it would be nice to see a Tome or something that would help reduce the fail rate a tad. Maybe even have it be the reward of a difficult high end quest!

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Yeah, I support this. While it may not be in the cards to have it "never fail" it sure would be nice for a end game geared monk with 500+AAs to have some other way to increase his success rate over a fresh-faced 65 without.

Allielyn said:

Yeah, I support this. While it may not be in the cards to have it "never fail" it sure would be nice for a end game geared monk with 500+AAs to have some other way to increase his success rate over a fresh-faced 65 without.

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But, that monk with 500+ AA's iis gonna have more tricks and gear to survive a Failed FD already. I wouldn't mind something instead to prevent two failures in a row, this is when things get ugly. Maybe a tome that starts at a 0% chance of preventing 2 in a row and goes to a 75% or 100% of preventing two failed FD's in a row.

You know as much as some of us would like to see FD work a certain way, I think we have to be able to respond to Cinn's arguments. Frankly, I can't. The main point of my position is that failed FDs waste time. But, as Cinn pointed out, they don't have to. So I have no position.

Reducing the failure rate is indeed a good idea, or at least preventing consecutive failures as Tempus suggested. Making it not fail at all is just not a good balancing move at all.

I plead: do not change anything to FD! I've seen what happens when things are done to FD and let me tell you it was not pretty. As it is currently community got used to it. Learned to work it and master it. I do not support any more changed to FD be it positive or negative.

Tempus said:

But, that monk with 500+ AA's iis gonna have more tricks and gear to survive a Failed FD already. I wouldn't mind something instead to prevent two failures in a row, this is when things get ugly. Maybe a tome that starts at a 0% chance of preventing 2 in a row and goes to a 75% or 100% of preventing two failed FD's in a row.

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That'd be the biggest waste of time in the known universe. It's rare enough that FD fails, and it happens twice in a row maybe once every two months. Either leave it alone or make it not fail, the only in-between is making the chance to fail lower.

I've screamed this in vent about a billion times that there is nothing separating me from a newly 65 monk in terms of pulling except skill. Gear helps, but even if I'm pulling something low like Rymaz, he can still kill me very quickly. When I pull Farhag wing in Tower of Tarhyl, I usually get nuked on incoming for 2600, then get hit twice for 4K total if the mob gets in melee range. You don't survive that if FD fails you. Sure, you pop ethereal and get off a successful FD. But then your stamina is drained for the next 10 minutes, with another 5 to get to full stamina again.

It's incredibly frustrating and ultimately useless for FD to fail. I've pulled every single raid encounter in the game except for maybe Plane of Nightmare, but I still have the same chance to fail FD as anyone else with 250 skill. It doesn't make sense to me, because it's just a meaningless delay for the raid. It doesn't make pulling a zone harder, but it adds to the "hey this is incredibly annoying" factor.

Because then I die, have to do my clickies again, get a few buffs from people who I can tell you for a fact are really sick of casting them on me by now, only to go up to the same pull again and get it done successfully. But, I've cost my raid about 5-10 minutes. These people don't want to wait around sitting on their hands doing nothing while I get rezzed because failing occasionally somehow makes the pulling game harder.

Let me recap: Having FD fail doesn't make pulling harder, just way more annoying. I love doing insanely hard pulls, but when I'm close to pulling one off, then FD fails and I lose all the distance I've built between mobs, I want to just /ex because it's such a meaningless annoyance. Casters, and I believe healers get AAs that make them never fizzle a spell, rangers never fail at shooting their bows, rogues never fail at backstabbing. They might miss, but for a monk, you can't "miss" Feign Death. It's our only job on a raid. Let us do it effectively, because failing FD just rips the fun out of the game.

So if we are told that there is never going to be a no fail FD, then why not logically go for something that mitigates the one situation that vitually (not 100% but close) causes a death for a monk raid pulling. Two failed FD's in a row. I am sorry if you feel it isn't worth while, but in the last month I have died 3 times on raids that I can recall solely due to 2 failures in a row. Now I am not on the same level of content you are obviously, but you admit that you can survive a failure at the cost of your stamina. Which by your own words, if the only job of a monk on a raid is to pull, is a worthy sacrafice to maintain your mob seperation.

EDIT: I am not saying that my idea is the best thing since sliced bread here, but taking the attitude of "no fail ot nothing" isn't going to help seperate you from the fresh faced level 65 monk.

Draxx said:

Casters, and I believe healers get AAs that make them never fizzle a spell, rangers never fail at shooting their bows, rogues never fail at backstabbing. They might miss, but for a monk, you can't "miss" Feign Death. It's our only job on a raid. Let us do it effectively, because failing FD just rips the fun out of the game.

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Healers don't get the fizzle AAs. Imho if monk ever gets a no fail FD then you might as well toss in the casters never get resists AAs and healers get no fizzle AAs because both are beyond failed monk FDs in the annoyance department. Matter of fact let's take out all the negatives in the game that slow everyone down on raids so we can fly through the game with ease and be done with it tomorrow instead of next year!

I know it royally sucks hard when a fail happens. Maybe there really isn't any real point of failed FDs, but then what's the point of fizzles or resists? I figure the point is so we can strive to improve ourselves, if not to avoid making it retardedly easy with no setbacks. Maybe it's time other classes got some failures of their own to even things up such as rng and rog(rog can fail sneak/hide I think but that's like uh yeah whatever), but I strongly disagree with making things easier. It's what seperates a good game from a bad game. My viewpoint of a good game in the world of mmorpgs is a game that requires you to consider options, where choices make the difference between success and failure while a bad game is basically an easy game that doesn't cause you much if any grief from bad choices. I often call the bad games childrens games.

Failures suck in any form period but it's the failures that keep you playing because failures = an unboring game.

Botiemaster said:

Healers don't get the fizzle AAs. Imho if monk ever gets a no fail FD then you might as well toss in the casters never get resists AAs and healers get no fizzle AAs because both are beyond failed monk FDs in the annoyance department. Matter of fact let's take out all the negatives in the game that slow everyone down on raids so we can fly through the game with ease and be done with it tomorrow instead of next year!

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Leave it to Romuzari to be condescending. Did you read what I said at all? You can't compare spell fizzles with monk FD. A spell fizzle costs you half the spell mana and about half a second. A Failed FD costs the entire raid about 10 minutes.

I don't want the game to be easier either, and had you actually read what I wrote instead of firing off a post that makes you sound like an idiot, you'd know that I said that failing an FD doesn't make pulling harder, just way more fucking annoying. Try doing a difficult pull, and just before you're about to pull off a masterful gem you FAIL and it destroys any distance you've built between mobs. Sure, you might survive with a mend or an /s 14, but you have to do the entire pull over again.

I don't actually think you should have input on this because you don't play a monk, you play a shadowknight who might fizzle an FD but will never fail.

I agree with Cinn and Romuzari on this though. I can't imagine that every night you raid you double fail and die. It IS part of the game and that's how it should be, no matter how GOOD you are in something you're NEVER perfect no matter what. I don't agree with a never fail FD. Healers can fizzle, Nukers get resists and partial resists, etc. Besides aren't monks the only class that can still pull with DF effects on too? I just don't see this as a huge issue.

Xardon said:

I agree with Cinn and Romuzari on this though. I can't imagine that every night you raid you double fail and die. It IS part of the game and that's how it should be, no matter how GOOD you are in something you're NEVER perfect no matter what. I don't agree with a never fail FD. Healers can fizzle, Nukers get resists and partial resists, etc. Besides aren't monks the only class that can still pull with DF effects on too? I just don't see this as a huge issue.

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It's not a huge issue. I know it will never be changed, which is why I don't feel like making a formal post on it. I can pull very very well with the current situation of monk FD. But with it comes frustration because I hate wasting time for what I view as a meaningless add-on to an already hard job.