CH nerf?

[Bella]

Let me first explain what I see and how it will affect things. Please point out what I may have wrong or misunderstand. I dont mean this to be a rant, nor am I angry, there are solutions to every nerf. I am just confussed as to how this helps the cleric issue.

The CH as patched ... well ok CH is not changed... how often players can be CHed has changed, to 2 seconds between (/pause 20).

Purpose:
1) balance out overpowerd CH a bit
2)free up clerics from being in rotations (put them on padding?) fewer clerics needed, more druid/shaman, bst/rng/pal, nec/brd needed
If I missed one my apologies (add bind wounds?), add runes and other mitigation...

Observation: this change only affects high end raids where you might want to put clerics on a pause 10 or 15 or 19 between CH's.

If cleric_bot_01 is a little fast on the fastest chain (pause 20), that CH misses = wipe (usually). btw will this eat the mana cost for that cast?
Solution: add padders

If padders get agro early (dont argue your bs, they do and they die) padding gets thin mt dies = wipe.
Solution: add more padders

IE:
Change padders to clerics (better more mana efficient healing not using CH) - this adds the need for more clerics, defeating the purpose of adding the 2 second minimum druation between CH's, designed to reduce number of needed clerics.

Am I missing something here? are there other healers left available to heal other melee's taking AE's? or off-tanking adds

And if its a fight that will require padding and CH chain is maxed, how will server lag add its problems. We have all seen chains where it looks like the pauses dont match from cleric to cleric, this is caused by server lag or user lag, and in big raids your gonna have lag.

I just dont see how making it harder to heal on mobs quading 1500+ dmg add flurry or 2k ae nuke etc. balances the power of CH. The mob probably already has 100,000 hp (how many players does it take to add up to 100,000 hp) mad dps from mob who may have specials and AE's that players dont get... how are we unbalanced? mobs even can get CH of thier own.

If a mob (1) has two mob clerics(2,3) casting CH at the same time and one hits 1 second after the other... will it take on mob(1)?

_______

~Bella Lugosi (61 enchanter) ... yes I am not a cleric whining about my nerf ;)

[Dujek]

It doesn't really balance the power of CHeal itself, as such. One of the main reasons I see (and I personally agree with it) is to stop cleric-zerging making-or-breaking high end raids. It also gets rid of a scenario where Some_Tank_01 can tank any mob in the game, provided he has 20 clerics at his back running a /pause 5 chain.

There will be some inherent problems, such as the ones you mentioned (ie, a cleric casting a fractino of a second too early and the heal not landing resulting in wipes), but those can be worked around. As for pad healers, their role will be eleveated a little bit, but there'll always be a CHeal chain, simply because it's the most efficient way to heal a tank with over 7000 hit points.

Being limited to a two second chain also means that the mobs themselves can be balanced around that, ie. mobs don't have to be made so that they're still provide a challenge to a raid with a one second chain, which completely cuts any guild's chances if they don't have ten or more clerics there.

I haven't seen first hand how these changes have affected raiding, so I don't really have a proper opinion yet, but I do agree with the motives behind it. The only way, however, to find out if the bad out-weighs the good is to put it into practice.

[zodium]

We wiped to Grand Librarian because a 2 second chain was insufficient.

[maddctr]

We had khalid tank grandlibrarian fine b4 chain slipped with a 2 sec pause. My major problem atm is that spell refresh will limit some padding, and that mob dps will need to be looked into for mobs such as DBLASH and king, over all this patch will require weeks of testing and tweeking as is.

[Foonie]

We wiped to Grand Librarian because a 2 second chain was insufficient.
We had khalid tank grandlibrarian fine b4 chain slipped with a 2 sec pause.

I think our chain was fast enough, CH just didn't go through every time. Maybe we should have used /pause 21 instead of 20.

[Dujek]

I think our chain was fast enough, CH just didn't go through every time. Maybe we should have used /pause 21 instead of 20.

That's not going to make much of a difference, most humans find it hard to judge a CHeal down to the microsecond. :p

Changing the limit to 1.6 or 1.7 seconds on the client target recast might make a bit of a difference, though. Allowing a little margin of error on the cast, though it's not really exploitable except by seriously hard-core clerics with amazing connections and an impeccible sense of timing.

[Noktar]

isnt it so that with a pause 20 and delay between lines and reaction time of the user the pause 20 is actually more like a pause 24? wich is there by a long enough pause

[muurian]

If it was codeable, Id make it so that if you CH under 2seconds, the CH hits for accordingly lower amounts. That way if you do a /pause 10 CH chain, the CHs only hit for 3000 max or something similar, but /pause 20 will still hit for max.

Is that codeable? I dunno.

[Duma]

"Any tank on the server" can be kept alive while tanking "any mob on the server" if there are enough clerics zerging for him, CH or no CH. Fights like muskl encourage the non use of CH's because he requires more situational healing.

Its a lot easier to zerg 20 healers than it is to raid for 12 months to get the right tank gear to kill somehting with only 4 clerics and a handful of padders.


There will still be overhealing no matter what.

[Duma]

Let me rephrase. Guilds will learn where to place their characters, use the proper strategy, then they will over heal to take care of the numbers game. Has been this way since day 1 of EQ.

[Duma]

^^^ of course that only applies to mobs that are killable, unlike Patrol Master Dblash, which hits too hard and too fast to even heal with 1.3 second spells..

[Wiz]

Duma: With a 20 cleric chain, Coltaine could tank Tarhyl.

With a 5 cleric chain and 15 cleric spammers, Coltaine could tank Tarhyl for maybe 25% until their mana ran out.

[Duma]

But what would the delay be for the 20 clerics? 10? 05? A mob that dished out that much dps would be nearly impossible to get into the rotation to begin with, unless you timed it right so your tank engaged 8 seconds into the first CH channel. Then you are almost 100% certified to get half your clerics dead from unestablished aggro on the MT. Or does tarhyl just simply have a ton more hp than anythitng else and not just a stronger attack?


Unless we were talking pop abilities and a good 2000-4000more hp than anyone on the server has at the moment.


I can't really really read your mind or know how to reply to a situtation no one on the server has been in yet. I can only attempt use relative and deductive logic from the experiences I have had.

[Fjodor]

But what would the delay be for the 20 clerics? 10? 05? A mob that dished out that much dps would be nearly impossible to get into the rotation to begin with, unless you timed it right so your tank engaged 8 seconds into the first CH channel. Then you are almost 100% certified to get half your clerics dead from unestablished aggro on the MT. Or does tarhyl just simply have a ton more hp than anythitng else and not just a stronger attack?


Unless we were talking pop abilities and a good 2000-4000more hp than anyone on the server has at the moment.


I can't really really read your mind or know how to reply to a situtation no one on the server has been in yet. I can only attempt use relative and deductive logic from the experiences I have had.

Yes, you start chain in the middle of the pull, and there is ways to make the MT have more aggro at start than the CH will gain on the cleric

[maddctr]

fjo the only way I can think to save this first cleric and potentially others from an 8 sec into ch engage is to target FD him.

[Wiz]

But what would the delay be for the 20 clerics? 10? 05? A mob that dished out that much dps would be nearly impossible to get into the rotation to begin with, unless you timed it right so your tank engaged 8 seconds into the first CH channel. Then you are almost 100% certified to get half your clerics dead from unestablished aggro on the MT. Or does tarhyl just simply have a ton more hp than anythitng else and not just a stronger attack?


Unless we were talking pop abilities and a good 2000-4000more hp than anyone on the server has at the moment.


I can't really really read your mind or know how to reply to a situtation no one on the server has been in yet. I can only attempt use relative and deductive logic from the experiences I have had.

Huh? What are you talking about? You're not even on topic anymore. First you say it'd be possible despite the nerf with enough clerics, now you say it wouldn't even be possible without the nerf.

It seems like you're just desperate to dig up reasons to revoke it.

[popbox]

Wouldn't DA clear agro? Target DA or possibly a CoH?

[Noktar]

CoH doesnt heal agro

You could AA regen tank just before pull and use the last 10 clerics of chain to pad heal till first CH would hit so agro on first cleric wouldnt be a problem

[Bella]

.... sheesh I'm long winded :eek: ....

As far as I know CoH does clear agro, in fact one of the pullers fell into ntov pit got agro, was cohed out. Unless I was mistaken and he wasnt agro after he fell in. I know you are a 64 mage and should know so I'm probably wrong.

Wiz wrote: "With a 20 cleric chain, Coltaine could tank Tarhyl.
With a 5 cleric chain and 15 cleric spammers, Coltaine could tank Tarhyl for maybe 25% until their mana ran out."

So in effect yes with enough clerics (and now padders) any 7k+ ish tank can still tank any mob. If mana is too low, just add more clerics to the chain. If fights get too long add more rogues or wizards to add DPS. Perhaps just add necros to pump mana to clerics, maybe have an equal number of necros as clerics and assign each to his own.

So guilds still need to recruit 20%ish clerics that can be put into CH rotations. I know 20 is an exageration I'm just quoting some /ooc. However have you ever seen a guild anywhere ever say that had too many clerics or turn off recruitment of clerics?

Are we forgetting that many people get tired of playing main clerics... is this not why the majority of clerics are currently bots? Stuck in a CH rotation as a main for most every mob on every raid is not fun. You say "welcome to the life of a cleric". Well I have already started to PL a cleric bot so that Kagera might be able to do something else in raids (as another class) and actually have fun and enjoy it more.

She played a shaman most often opposite my monk before WR and got sick of it - malo, slow, heal (ad infinatum), and every few mintutes respeed/rebuff... and hell thats more variety then clerics ever get. Seldom does a cleric get to fight except when soloing low blues at high risk.

Perhaps CH is so overpowering that it should be removed all together and we should just collect 50+ spam healers for raid mobs? Maybe if we are lucky we can have 100ish people on raids and it not be full of lag/ld/zone crashes. Or better yet make zerging an actual tactic and creat the "zerg rez/rebuff group" (epic cleric to rez/cleric to aego/necro to pump mana to aego cleric/enchanter to speed/druid to resist buff/shaman for more hp buffs)
... for those that dont understand zerging, it works like this: keep throwing people at the mob till it dies, it doesnt matter how many deaths the players incure there will be many rezzes during and after fight ...

Zerging is not a valid tactic, because it is not a tactic at all... a tactic is figuring out how to kill a mob that wipes raids of 80+ peope with only 13 characters (lord inquisitor seru) and yes I was a monk/cleric(bot on rotation) in that fight, and kag was RGC(remove greater curse) shaman for that fight. -- additionally our first attempt at that fight was with 28 people without seru bane weapons (proc and spell dmg only), the fight took well over an hour got lord down to 23% before we wiped because someone lagged too far on a run into fight and agroed a nearby spawn) for info on this mob, search allakhazam (sp?)

I guess my point in one sentence is - why try to fix what really aint broke.
Complete heal is already not 'complete' as it once was. Perhaps "really long cast time really large heal" is a better name.

Or maybe just be content doing blues and the occasional even in a group for mediocre loot.

_______________
~Bella (61 enchanter - less than 10aa's left till DC)

[Kagera]

I as a cleric have some questions I hope Wizzy will answer. (or someone in the know)

1) If you have a time limit on Complete Heal and 2 seconds max is the duration period until the tank can receive another CH, what happens if the tank gets any lag? The cleric lags - they all die. If lag is an issue on the tank would it register it hit at the appropriate time?

2) If it does *not* register at the correct second, then everyone else's button will be wrong, potentially killing the warrior and guild. I know you tested this; did you test it with a huge amount of people in the same zone?

3) I can understand you not wanting to have a "cleric zerg" fight, but is that even a real concern? If it is, how come people haven't beaten everything on the server with ease?

4) I see only where it will encourage twice as many clerics, (1 chain heal on main tank, 1 on secondary - and if Main dies then clerics are added to pad healing on tank number 2. (Now Main tank) Cleric will not be able to just complete heal new main tank from switchover because everyone's buttons would be off. I understand that the MoBS can be adjusted for this CH situation so they do not have 100,000,000 hit points or hit for upper 1000's. The question I have is "Are the MoBs currently adjusted'?

5) I do not think it is good tactics putting all shamans, druids and healers on cleric duty. Sure they heal, but on really long raids, every group was assigned a shaman or druid if possible and part of their job is keep their group alive. Now the group will not get pad heals. Shamans and Druids won’t be able to DoT stuff because their mana will run out. I can Ethereal Light apx 12 times before I go oom, and 1600 hit points isn’t a lot. That is at 4.8 seconds per cast. Everyone that pad heals will need a lot of mana - remember CH is the most efficient heal in the game. Pad healing is cast at the same time as other pad heals, thus everyone runs out apx at the same time. Does anyone even have enough mana to keep up with pad heals in a long fight?

6) I would like a test raid, with everyone (Wizzy) to kill a mob, and I think the mob we should try is the one in Umbrel Plains. That mob *should* be easy if done right. Can we test it out there?

[Noktar]

So in effect yes with enough clerics (and now padders) any 7k+ ish tank can still tank any mob. If mana is too low, just add more clerics to the chain. If fights get too long add more rogues or wizards to add DPS. Perhaps just add necros to pump mana to clerics, maybe have an equal number of necros as clerics and assign each to his own.

Effectivly you say every mob is possible if you have enough people. (cause by now you are almost adding every class in game)
But that is the whole idee about strong mobs if you cant take it come back when you are stronger. This can be with more people or more experience better gear.



PS. CoH does not clear agro we once send a 65 warrior out on a red mob to him just to see how hard he hits and i CoHed him. So we thought man that guy is pretty good. thinking CoH cleared agro. then one said: "uhhh guys look we have that guy incomming"

[Wiz]

1) If you have a time limit on Complete Heal and 2 seconds max is the duration period until the tank can receive another CH, what happens if the tank gets any lag? The cleric lags - they all die. If lag is an issue on the tank would it register it hit at the appropriate time?

2) If it does *not* register at the correct second, then everyone else's button will be wrong, potentially killing the warrior and guild. I know you tested this; did you test it with a huge amount of people in the same zone?

Answering both of these: Yes. It was tested quite a bit. Lag doesn't go reversely, so no, the cleric lagging doesn't lead to his CH failing.

3) I can understand you not wanting to have a "cleric zerg" fight, but is that even a real concern? If it is, how come people haven't beaten everything on the server with ease?

Yes. And because there isn't enough clerics yet.

4) I see only where it will encourage twice as many clerics, (1 chain heal on main tank, 1 on secondary - and if Main dies then clerics are added to pad healing on tank number 2. (Now Main tank) Cleric will not be able to just complete heal new main tank from switchover because everyone's buttons would be off. I understand that the MoBS can be adjusted for this CH situation so they do not have 100,000,000 hit points or hit for upper 1000's. The question I have is "Are the MoBs currently adjusted'?

That makes no sense. Why not just gear up the tank so he can tank with the 2 sec chain or have spam healers use remedy if the MT drops low instead?

5) I do not think it is good tactics putting all shamans, druids and healers on cleric duty. Sure they heal, but on really long raids, every group was assigned a shaman or druid if possible and part of their job is keep their group alive. Now the group will not get pad heals. Shamans and Druids won’t be able to DoT stuff because their mana will run out. I can Ethereal Light apx 12 times before I go oom, and 1600 hit points isn’t a lot. That is at 4.8 seconds per cast. Everyone that pad heals will need a lot of mana - remember CH is the most efficient heal in the game. Pad healing is cast at the same time as other pad heals, thus everyone runs out apx at the same time. Does anyone even have enough mana to keep up with pad heals in a long fight?

All shamans, druids and healers do not need to be put on cleric duty. This is a pretty stupid assumption.

6) I would like a test raid, with everyone (Wizzy) to kill a mob, and I think the mob we should try is the one in Umbrel Plains. That mob *should* be easy if done right. Can we test it out there?

No. I've already tested this.

[Wiz]

About "with enough clerics. you can still..., this changes nothing!" a few points.

Raids are size limited.

AND

20 spammers can't heal as efficently as 5 chain CHing clerics.

[Fjodor]

fjo the only way I can think to save this first cleric and potentially others from an 8 sec into ch engage is to target FD him.
Nope, there are other ways, I won't tell you how tho, figure it out for yourself :D

[mwh]

"Nope, there are other ways, I won't tell you how tho, figure it out for yourself "

When people make comments like this, ive found 90% of the time they are talking out of their arse and have no idea how to do it. But Ill leave you to figure out if he really is.

[Fjodor]

"Nope, there are other ways, I won't tell you how tho, figure it out for yourself "

When people make comments like this, ive found 90% of the time they are talking out of their arse and have no idea how to do it. But Ill leave you to figure out if he really is.

I'm not, I can say that it involvs atleast 2 people to do the pull.

[mwh]

See, we are talking about ways that this change effects things, and you want to keep some secret supermethod of pulling to yourself. It doesnt help the discussion at all. So if you really have some secret method thats being done, then put it here so we see WHY a Ch of .5 seconds could be possible. Midn you, that means that coltaine or I would have to gain enough aggro to make up for 6000-7000 heal every half a second, not just the original pull. I find that hard to believe.

If you are talking about just a method to make up for the original heal, like having a tank use a discpline to tank while the MT builds up aggro, well, that only works for the first CH, and probably wont help over the long term of a pull

[Wiz]

He's talking about pulling with a SK that builds up aggro quickly and then having the Warrior taunt to give the Warrior a large chunk of start aggro.

Gasp, I spoiled the secret.

[mwh]

From the pacify thread, you said " said that yes, this will increase the gap in the sense that Warriors will be better tanks for boss mobs that your guild is struggling to take, but that wasn't the intention, just an unavoidable side effect. "

Then if paladins were tanking fine before, and we are getting unavoidably hurt more than warriors, then excuse me for feeling that by you saying that, maybe you really thought deep in your heart that paladins were tanking too well, since you seem to not mind too much if something makes warriors better tanks by comparison. Knights are supposed to be able to build more aggro(at least, thats what I think), so theoretically I could run a slightly tighter Ch than warriors to make up for my having less hitpoints, but in penalty Id need more clerics and more chances for mistakes. Here, it sets a artificial limit, you can run tighter Chs up to 2.0 seconds, but after that, any advantage to your aggro doesnt matter at all.


Anyway, I know you love when people bring up Eqlive*snicker*, but on Live there is no limit on CH and I was in several large raid guilds, and I can say for a certainty that(at least in the guilds I was in) we had limits to the point of which we could not just keep making the cycle quicker and quicker. For one, lets say we had 12 clerics doing a cycle of 1.1 seconds. Now every second the tank is getting hit by a heal of 5.5k. Now that means the tank has to somehow generate enough hate to keep up against 5.5k heal aggro every second. Thats um, extremely hard to say the least. Now lets pretend that he has UberFreakinAggroweapon 1 and 2 in each of his hands so can keep up with this. Then you now have to have 12 clerics with great manapools, since of course a CH cycle is only as good as the least manapool in the lot. You also have 12 people that could go LD, have their dogs unplug their computer, etc. Its just that more likely to break down and get ugly.


So, regardless, my guild(RUIN) isnt going to have enoughc lerics to drop a 1.1 second CH cycle anytime in this millenium, so why am I against this change? My main reason is I dont like how it makes yet anothe rpossible mistake in a CH cycle, and if we do get more clerics, Id like to take advantage of it to be safer in a fight(for example, to do 2.0 against librarian instead of 2.1 once our clerics have more mana). Before, you had to worry about people waiting too long or losing aggro. Now if someone jumps the gun by half a second, its as if they didnt heal at all. Of course, you can say, dont do that mob then, wait. I guess thats a argument, but since I really dont see anyone running 1second CH cycles anytime soon, why was the change put in? RUIN has never ran a cycle under 2 seconds, and we rarely have the clerics to do that. Was GOTW running 1.5 ones or something? Or was this to fix a problem in the future?

[Fjodor]

From the pacify thread, you said " said that yes, this will increase the gap in the sense that Warriors will be better tanks for boss mobs that your guild is struggling to take, but that wasn't the intention, just an unavoidable side effect. "

Then if paladins were tanking fine before, and we are getting unavoidably hurt more than warriors, then excuse me for feeling that by you saying that, maybe you really thought deep in your heart that paladins were tanking too well, since you seem to not mind too much if something makes warriors better tanks by comparison. Knights are supposed to be able to build more aggro(at least, thats what I think), so theoretically I could run a slightly tighter Ch than warriors to make up for my having less hitpoints, but in penalty Id need more clerics and more chances for mistakes. Here, it sets a artificial limit, you can run tighter Chs up to 2.0 seconds, but after that, any advantage to your aggro doesnt matter at all.


Anyway, I know you love when people bring up Eqlive*snicker*, but on Live there is no limit on CH and I was in several large raid guilds, and I can say for a certainty that(at least in the guilds I was in) we had limits to the point of which we could not just keep making the cycle quicker and quicker. For one, lets say we had 12 clerics doing a cycle of 1.1 seconds. Now every second the tank is getting hit by a heal of 5.5k. Now that means the tank has to somehow generate enough hate to keep up against 5.5k heal aggro every second. Thats um, extremely hard to say the least. Now lets pretend that he has UberFreakinAggroweapon 1 and 2 in each of his hands so can keep up with this. Then you now have to have 12 clerics with great manapools, since of course a CH cycle is only as good as the least manapool in the lot. You also have 12 people that could go LD, have their dogs unplug their computer, etc. Its just that more likely to break down and get ugly.


So, regardless, my guild(RUIN) isnt going to have enoughc lerics to drop a 1.1 second CH cycle anytime in this millenium, so why am I against this change? My main reason is I dont like how it makes yet anothe rpossible mistake in a CH cycle, and if we do get more clerics, Id like to take advantage of it to be safer in a fight(for example, to do 2.0 against librarian instead of 2.1 once our clerics have more mana). Before, you had to worry about people waiting too long or losing aggro. Now if someone jumps the gun by half a second, its as if they didnt heal at all. Of course, you can say, dont do that mob then, wait. I guess thats a argument, but since I really dont see anyone running 1second CH cycles anytime soon, why was the change put in? RUIN has never ran a cycle under 2 seconds, and we rarely have the clerics to do that. Was GOTW running 1.5 ones or something? Or was this to fix a problem in the future?

Yes GotW has been running CH chains on under 2 seconds to make encounters nice and safe. And like Wiz said earlier, Melwin would have been able to take down GODS if the CH rot wasn't changed, that is, have 20+ clerics run a ch rot on .5 sec, that way clr don't run out of mana and the GOD will die. This change was put in to make things harder but allso to be able to balance mob DPS, now instad of makeing mobs hit for more DPS just to cover that large guilds (GOTW/Ruin) gets more clerics we instead have to come up with better tactics and WR don't have to go down the road that live went with PoP+ expantions, where mobs hit for 10k+ dmg every round and tanks have 20k+ hp unbuffed.

[Wiz]

See what Fjodor said, really. You think your tanking abilities are getting hurt -- fine. In the sense that you have an artificial limit for what you can tank based on your mitigation and hit points.

I don't really see a problem with that. Knights are way better exp/trash tankers than warriors in the sense of instant aggro, warriors should somewhat be ahead in tanking big mobs, but the IMPORTANT thing isn't class balance, it's mob vs player balance and equipment balance. More HP/AC should have an advantage beyond "one cleric less needed".

[Gwendelyn]

I think i may have gotten confused along the way reading this topic but here goes. If one of the problems with warriors is not getting enough aggro and Cheal doesnt have a problem getting aggro, what about implementing Hate weapons or even aa skills that increase hate given by warriors? If this is not one of the arguements i apologize :) I wish i knew more about the higher end content on this server to reply further but will have to research it further. Also if some one could recap this and bring all of the arguements to a list i would love to see and reply to it, as i have been playing for a while and have done ch rotations myself, just want to help nothing more :)

[Duma]

Only reason we used a 21 on the Librarian is to prevent the server from rejecting a early CH. You tanked it comfortably other than one lucky round where I guess AA slow wore off and it drained on the same round. The big problem isnt with the mobs hits or your tanking ability it is with its HP. Even if you didnt fall at about 57% we would not of dropped it because some of our (six) clerics were already going oom by the time the mob was at 50%. I don't think we are going to have any problems. Your hp still has room for improvment with a few higher level items we can easily get, and you still have those unactivated aa's.

The only mob we have failed "miserably" at is Dblash and that would happen to anyone who tries to fight him a tthe moment. Other than that we have failed only to coincidence, server hiccups, and mobs doing stupid things during the middle of engage and after they die which = wipes to people who don't have previous knowledge.


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On the Knight Vs. Warrior debate, I have aways suscribed to the belief that "the perfect tank" should always be a luxery and not a requirement and that a warrior, paladin, and shadow knight should, eventually with different amounts of work invested, beable to be servicable against ANYTHING. The only thing I fear is with stamina styles going in that a warriors unyielding will last long enough to get through the longer high hp mob fights without the guild finding they need a 2nd L65 with 100 aa's to take his place 3/4 through the fight. Then again since we don't currently use a warrior to tank it isnt really our problem...

[Duma]

I think i may have gotten confused along the way reading this topic but here goes. If one of the problems with warriors is not getting enough aggro and Cheal doesnt have a problem getting aggro, what about implementing Hate weapons or even aa skills that increase hate given by warriors? If this is not one of the arguements i apologize :) I wish i knew more about the higher end content on this server to reply further but will have to research it further. Also if some one could recap this and bring all of the arguements to a list i would love to see and reply to it, as i have been playing for a while and have done ch rotations myself, just want to help nothing more :)

There are "hate weapons". They are called Nightjaunt and Ytrazliarch and only 1 toon on the server has both of them.

Unless you are talking about weapons that generate more aggro per point of damage and not through proc. I don't know if that is possible though.

[Wiz]

Only reason we used a 21 on the Librarian is to prevent the server from rejecting a early CH. You tanked it comfortably other than one lucky round where I guess AA slow wore off and it drained on the same round. The big problem isnt with the mobs hits or your tanking ability it is with its HP. Even if you didnt fall at about 57% we would not of dropped it because some of our (six) clerics were already going oom by the time the mob was at 50%. I don't think we are going to have any problems. Your hp still has room for improvment with a few higher level items we can easily get, and you still have those unactivated aa's.

The only mob we have failed "miserably" at is Dblash and that would happen to anyone who tries to fight him a tthe moment. Other than that we have failed only to coincidence, server hiccups, and mobs doing stupid things during the middle of engage and after they die which = wipes to people who don't have previous knowledge.


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On the Knight Vs. Warrior debate, I have aways suscribed to the belief that "the perfect tank" should always be a luxery and not a requirement and that a warrior, paladin, and shadow knight should, eventually with different amounts of work invested, beable to be servicable against ANYTHING. The only thing I fear is with stamina styles going in that a warriors unyielding will last long enough to get through the longer high hp mob fights without the guild finding they need a 2nd L65 with 100 aa's to take his place 3/4 through the fight. Then again since we don't currently use a warrior to tank it isnt really our problem...

Thank you. What you said is quite correct. As for Knight vs Warrior, if anything, stamina styles will close the cap in tanking style dispersity since both Paladins and SKs get tanking styles of their own.

A paladin CAN tank any mob in the game, with the right gear. I just don't want any paladin tanking any mob. :)

[muurian]

Thank you. What you said is quite correct. As for Knight vs Warrior, if anything, stamina styles will close the cap in tanking style dispersity since both Paladins and SKs get tanking styles of their own.

A paladin CAN tank any mob in the game, with the right gear. I just don't want any paladin tanking any mob. :)

As long as you concede that Khalid would be an example for the type of paladin that CAN tank the mobs, there shouldnt be a problem with regards to raid mob balance.

[Wiz]

Thank you. What you said is quite correct. As for Knight vs Warrior, if anything, stamina styles will close the cap in tanking style dispersity since both Paladins and SKs get tanking styles of their own.

A paladin CAN tank any mob in the game, with the right gear. I just don't want any paladin tanking any mob. :)

As long as you concede that Khalid would be an example for the type of paladin that CAN tank the mobs, there shouldnt be a problem with regards to raid mob balance.

Should Khalid be able to tank AD? Definitely.
Should Khalid be able to tank Ghan? Yes.
Should Khalid be able to tank Gandolas? Probably not yet, needs better gear.
Should Khalid be able to tank Tarhyl? Sometime in the far off future, once he has REALLY good gear.

[zodium]

I think i may have gotten confused along the way reading this topic but here goes. If one of the problems with warriors is not getting enough aggro and Cheal doesnt have a problem getting aggro, what about implementing Hate weapons or even aa skills that increase hate given by warriors? If this is not one of the arguements i apologize :) I wish i knew more about the higher end content on this server to reply further but will have to research it further. Also if some one could recap this and bring all of the arguements to a list i would love to see and reply to it, as i have been playing for a while and have done ch rotations myself, just want to help nothing more :)

There are "hate weapons". They are called Nightjaunt and Ytrazliarch and only 1 toon on the server has both of them.

Unless you are talking about weapons that generate more aggro per point of damage and not through proc. I don't know if that is possible though.

Ytrazliarch is not a hate weapon. The proc is damage/mana tap, making it no different aggro-wise from any other proccing weapon.

[maddctr]

Name me a main hand proccing weapon with a similar high dps ratio and a non negative proc to self. I have currently just about every weapn feasable to us and have nearly completed the ytraz quest. Surely you jest about playing off ytraz's aggro and worth.

[zodium]

Name me a main hand proccing weapon with a similar high dps ratio and a non negative proc to self. I have currently just about every weapn feasable to us and have nearly completed the ytraz quest. Surely you jest about playing off ytraz's aggro and worth.

I'm just correcting him. Ytraz generates a lot of hate, but that doesn't make it a hate weapon.

[Yvin]

As I see it, the problem with the patch is that it is mono-focused. What I mean... it was put into place for the principle reason of requiring a *single* player to achieve a certain level of sucess in order for a raid to work (ala Coltaine or Khalid). On live, because of the way defensive worked, you needed 3 or 4 similarly equipped tanks, and you had to switch aggro several times during a fight, which was always interesting. WR end game is simply much higher dps and much shorter fights. Most of the time, you need only 1 tank.

I don't think a guild should be built around a single person. If that person quits, doesn't log on, etc, the guild suffers and/or cannot raid anything. Also, all uber gear must first go to that tank, instead of other classes.

Problem: if you build an endgame based upon the requirements of a 5 cle chain and a single uber tank, once that tank reaches a certain level, all older content will be absurdly trivial (because of the lack of hps on current mobs).

Possible solution: Increased hp, lowered dps for end-game mobs. This is a must for the 2 second chain to work, unless you want to see zerg shaman/dru in the future. At this point, with upper-tier dps still pretty insane, you will need a druid chain in between the cleric chain. One a guild gets enough druids, you are back to the situation of before. Do you then nerf dru heals?

Wiz, everything is designed to block a Tarhyl fight. If you want to block it, key the zone, put 65 level limit, etc. There are alternate methods of slow down besides an entire restructuring of the way raids work (not that I particularly enjoy these other alternatives). But, this brings me to my next point...

Here is what is most frustration. Wiz, you seem to have an arbitrary idea in your head of when high-end content should be beaten. There are currently at least 6 high-end unbeaten zones. Typically, when that content has been defeated, or close to defeated, then instead of nerfing the way in which is was overcome, Verant creates an expansion. Wiz, you're great about designing new content. I would 100% rather vanquish the current zones and move on to something new, than spend another 6 months in TOV. Attempting the same thing over and over gets old. When I hear the TOT music, I shudder and have flashbacks of Trial 3.

In chess, there is a tactic called 'prophylaxis' where you make a move designed to defeat an opponent's move before he makes it. This CH change is essentially a prophylactic move. You are guarding against a 20 cle CH change before it becomes a reality (or even close to a reality). Truth be told, finding 20 clerics (approx. a 55-60 raid force) is much harder than outfitting a single tank. Guilds will have all there clerics and sk's in fine steel, while the sole possible tank will recieve all the items necessary to advance. The most clerics I've ever seen on a raid is 9. From where is this mythical 20 clerics going to come?? Colt's dreams??

I understand the distaste for the CH zerg. I hate it myself. But there are alternative tactics to defeat it besides timing limitations (mob adjustments, raid limits, keys, level limits, creative fights, ala Ring Events, many simultaneous mobs, etc), because once that tank has the ability to tank the end-game, he suddenly trivializes everything because of the lesser amount of healers needed. Or, conversely, raids will simply replace the cleric zerg with sham/dru zerg. Or, and this is why I resist this change, the end tier zones will remain unbeaten as they have remained ever since they were designed. If gods and boss dragons aren't being slain soon, what has been the point of playing for over a year now? If you want to keep distancing us from winning certain fights, it seems like its only an issue of your pride, not server health, which is inhibiting our progress.

-Y/y

[Wiz]

Because dragons aren't being killed at all.

Except for Aanshlav, Rizhal, Za, Cillzaia, Nartalzia, Visherilla, rite.

Tarhyl is a one-shot mob. I expect him to be close to unbeatable. And yes, I'm taking a future thing into measure, because I have a thing called pattern recogition, and the high end game was becoming a matter of how many clerics you had, not how big mana pools or how much DPS.

[Yvin]

On live, TOV took about 3 weeks to learn. After that, it took 7 hours to clear. We've been working on TOV for 8 months and have completed about half. It... gets...old.

The sense of progress was finally returning (after it took 4 months to catch up to where we were before the last big retuning), and now, there is another time of raid redefinition. We acheive some success, both gotw and ruin, and bam, CH is changed. This seems like direct retalitation against winning, as if you don't want anyone to win anything, as if it's only a matter of ego.

If, and this is a big if, you do in fact retune nearly *every* uber mob, then, the patch will work. If not, then this server has become a hopeless struggle against your will.

Every time we reach within striking distance of defeating a zone, it seems you simply widen that distance. How can we help but feel frustrated? This was the same sort of tactic that made me quit live. Verant seemed to be against the playerbase, not for it. It became a battle of pride, not a battle of humanity versus computer content.

This is the heart of my complaint: it seems you are much more interested in seeing us struggle, than seeing us suceed.

If you want battles to me like live, battles of attrition, mana-management, and dps, you must implement the necessary changes in every encounter towards that end. I personally would rather see a comprimise between the two methods than 55 minute fights. Anyway, if the mob adjustments are forthcoming, then many of my arguments are moot.

[Wiz]

On live, TOV took about 3 weeks to learn. After that, it took 7 hours to clear. We've been working on TOV for 8 months and have completed about half. It... gets...old.

The sense of progress was finally returning (after it took 4 months to catch up to where we were before the last big retuning), and now, there is another time of raid redefinition. We acheive some success, both gotw and ruin, and bam, CH is changed. This seems like direct retalitation against winning, as if you don't want anyone to win anything, as if it's only a matter of ego.

If, and this is a big if, you do in fact retune nearly *every* uber mob, then, the patch will work. If not, then this server has become a hopeless struggle against your will.

Every time we reach within striking distance of defeating a zone, it seems you simply widen that distance. How can we help but feel frustrated? This was the same sort of tactic that made me quit live. Verant seemed to be against the playerbase, not for it. It became a battle of pride, not a battle of humanity versus computer content.

This is the heart of my complaint: it seems you are much more interested in seeing us struggle, than seeing us suceed.

If you want battles to me like live, battles of attrition, mana-management, and dps, you must implement the necessary changes in every encounter towards that end. I personally would rather see a comprimise between the two methods than 55 minute fights. Anyway, if the mob adjustments are forthcoming, then many of my arguments are moot.

What exactly do you think I'm doing? I'm changing fights to be longer, more about mana management and gear, less about zerging. It's not like CH change is a major hard-hitter in terms of nerfing. But anyways, I know your attitude in general, so I'm not going to bother.

NToV took 3 weeks to learn on live because people would spend entire weekends raiding it and not focus on anything else. GoTW goes there once a month and kills 2-3 dragons. It seems like we have a new master of spin doctoring.