tanking etc

[TheDude81321]

Hey, I've been reading up because I had recently rolled an iksar sk, which in this game appears to be an aggro monster, with decent tanking ability, and okay damage.* What I have been reading is that late game especially, theres a lack of need for tanks, which seems to put sks into a strange place.* On the other hand, I don't know how far into end game I'll even make it, but I am part of a static group basically, and I was wondering at lower/mid levels is a tank necessary to the group?* If so, would it be better to be a warrior/knight, or could maybe a monk handle as tank? (for reference, the group is ranger/rogue/cleric/whateveriendupwith, where I am dual clienting the cleric).* Any thoughts would be appreciated, I just dont want to be playing a tank-ish class if its not really necessary, that is to say, if I don't really need one of the three tanker type classes, I'd rather add more dps to the group.* Also, I guess if a monk type could tank, would the ranger be able to instead? would it be better to have some arcane support? (enchanter or maybe arcane dps such as wiz?) Thanks in advance for any advice anyone would offer.

edit: it was also running through my head that if i had made an enchanter, maybe then the ranger could tank better with the aid of slow/haste and locking down with mez? Or pally as a tank, but better since they are more dps than sk?

[NOLORTAT]

well hears my thought on what you said. a tank is always need but there are many types of tanks. in what i got from your post a SK would be a great tank for that basic group. hears why 1) they are masters of agroooo with a ranger and rogue you will need a strong agroo magnet to keep the target on one person so your heals will be more effective. 2) the SK will also make a good puller with his ability he will be able to split mobs with the help of the ranger or rogue. if you do decide* not to play a tank and are looking for DPS might i also say that with that group a good shamon or beast lord would make a fine addition. they both would bring buffs and a pet to help with dps. wish you the best of luck hason the warrior :dance:

[Waldoff]

once you get high up, the SK will be a perfect tank, especially with the AC bonus of being an iksar. The ranger no matter how slowed you get it wont be able to tank 1/3rd as well as the SK.

Tanks are very needed, but because of their dependence on gear they also take a bit of effort to get equipped to a lvl of use.

[Mythryn]

Sounds like you want to have some tanking and some DPS all in one, so Paladin would probably be a perfect choice for you. Tanking ability, decent agro generation, DPS and heals/buffs.

[Bone]

Most of the buffs will be useless however in that you have a cleric.

However if that is the group you play in all the time I would really say pally is the best choice. We hold aggro well in most groups. You get a self haste self and self weapon proc which can be useful since i didnt see a wizard or haster in the group.

Despite the word on the street that pallys do "more" dps than SKs if you decide to go with a SK the difference in DPS isnt going to be much at all until higher levels with some AAs so dont let that put you off.

[TheDude81321]

Would a pally be able to hold aggro off rogue/ranger? And I was also thinking, theres a chance that they might not even tank well enough, since I dont have a haster/slower, so maybe even a warrior would be preferable? since, I do have some decent dps... I don't know, theres just so many ways too look at it that I am looking for as much advice from people who know as possible. Thanks all who have helped and will in the future :)

[Brimztone]

Would a pally be able to hold aggro off rogue/ranger? And I was also thinking, theres a chance that they might not even tank well enough, since I dont have a haster/slower, so maybe even a warrior would be preferable? since, I do have some decent dps... I don't know, theres just so many ways too look at it that I am looking for as much advice from people who know as possible. Thanks all who have helped and will in the future :)
Yes, a Pally would be able to hold aggro off a Rogue or a Ranger. I agree with the Pally in this situation. In a worst case scenario, the Pally could start healing himself(I think it is more than the SK Lifetaps at higher levels, but I am not 100% sure), and possibly the group if he has to.

[Zaos]

The difference between pally and sk mainly is dps and agro. Paladin generate plenty of agro for exp groups and do great dps. Their ability to draw the agro required for many raid targets is limited by magic resistance keeping them from drawing agro (especially in many end game encounters). Shadowknights dont have this problem as their line of agro spells has no resist check. They also have a slightly better tanking stance than paladins but do less dps, and not just a tad less now with the innate crits paladins have (even at low levels). Know that knights will never be a permanent MT because warriors mitigate more damage but there are times where shadowknights are needed for tanking where paladins are useless.

[Danku]

On the pally vs SK argument, isn't the presence of a pally also a boon to the DPS of the group?

[TheDude81321]

Interesting, I'm still brooding on it... what do you guys think about a warrior? how would one fare in keeping aggro off the rogue/ranger? By the way, I can never thank enough for all the information advice, but I'll always try anyways, thank you all!

[Armando]

until the latter part of the game (with good equip), i believe a pal would outaggro a warrior (using spells + taunt)

[Zaos]

On the pally vs SK argument, isn't the presence of a pally also a boon to the DPS of the group?


Pally dps is great for a group because you get a tank with a little extra dps. I believe when it comes to group xp a good paladin is to tanking what a rogue/wizard is to dps.

As far as warrior taunt is concerned.. they get a great Taunt skill which helps but they also often need good clickable items to procure agro (snap agro in the beginning of fights). Paladin agro abilities are probably a bit superior on most mobs (the ones without high magic resist) in the lower levels but by 65 a warrior has great agro abilities. When I offtank in raids or groups warriors have little trouble pulling the attention of the mob on them even while Im still taunting/stunning. It would probably take all the agro I can put out to keep our warriors from stealing agro from me.

[vistachiri]

Depends really, if you've got no monk I'd say go w/an sk as your mt and selfheals bedammed, if of course your sk is competent at splitting, and there are few that aren't highend. In fact other than what I'd say is a bit more in the area of aggro generation its all sk's really have over pallys, the pet doesnt count b/c well...as we all know its pretty worthless, though it can function as a meatshield for a second or 2 if it can actually manage to get aggro. Pally's really hold quite a bit over sk's if we're not going into a situation where splitting is neccesary or if you already have a monk, or a really good necro to pull. You've got the groupheals, selfheals, burning a loh, although they're kind of even there as w/the 50 billion ht aa's harmtouch gets quite nasty, then you've got the bonus undead dmg for all the melee's in the group, unfortunately it doesnt seem to affect pets, so if you've got a mage, a necro, a bst, a pally, cleric and some other caster...well you wont really see many returns on that. Though also I might add whether or not you need a tank is really determined by where you're going. There are quite a few places where one is a benefit, but ultimately uneccesary. Highend monks, mage pets, beast pets, and necro pets tank fine in the early portions of kedge even the late portions of mielc. Cmal 1 can be tanked by those too, albeit with a little more difficulty, though not as much as deep mielc difficulty. It's really a matter more of whether one can be found or not. While I'm sure everyone prefers a cookiecutter group base of a tank and a cleric, just add dps, its not always feasible.

[Noktar]

In this group ranger/rogue/cleric/whateveriendupwith you would want to play a shadowknight as it would open up alot more area's/targets you can do because of your splitting. The ranger/rogue is the real dps so no real reason to chose a diffrent tank for dps reasons.

[vistachiri]

Unless of course you're in a primarily undead area, then of course your ranger and rogue would be critting the hell out of the undead left and right making the pally good to have, in that case just grab a monk.

[roark]

Are monks able to tank well at high levels?

[hooden]

Are monks able to tank well at high levels?


It depends what kind of group you are doing. If you're exping against relatively weak mobs then most monks tank decent (e.g. Lasanth). However, if you're fighting somewhat challenging mobs then most monks would not tank well. I'm sure some monks can tank good in many zones, but if you are used to the style of a War being healed by a cleric then you will be disappointed.

Then of course there is Zhak.

[Zaos]

Monks tank unnecessarily well. It's really an imbalance that ought to adjusted imo. Why a class that has high damage and is able to FD to avoid damage allows a class to also bear the grunt of attacks is beyond me. It was nerfed in live and should be nerfed here I say.

[moghedancarns]

Get a mage pet. They tank better, hold aggro better, don't buff beg, have gate, actually do DPS that registers, and don't loot corpses before they hit the ground.

[Jinxat]

Zaos is just jealous imo. I leveled my monk from 0-65 pretty much duo with my druid and I tanked the entire time. Now that I have pretty decent gear and aas I can tank pretty much anything outside of cmal 3-2 and up as a monk. The only problem with monk tanks is getting aggro and holding it the entire fight, especially with wizards crits. However, if your in a smart group who uses their aggro reducing skills then monk tanks are very useful.

[Brimztone]

Get a mage pet. They tank better, hold aggro better, don't buff beg, have gate, actually do DPS that registers, and don't loot corpses before they hit the ground.
:keke: Yes, yes they do.

[tinkaa]

If you plan to group with rogues a lot, the pet won't hold aggro off them very well if they do too much damage (even with all aggro reducing AAs) - neither water, neither air, neither relic pet with talok's taunting echoes. If they'll have to watch their aggro too much their DPS won't reach their full potential.

[Zaos]

However, if your in a smart group who uses their aggro reducing skills then monk tanks are very useful.


I have been jealous of your l337 monk abilities in the past and its just silly that as a plate wearing tank that I should have been. Monks have great abilities and a purpose in both exp groups and raids (dps/pulling/soforth). Tanking (with up and around 1700-1800AC... in leather) simply didn't need to be added to the list to get a great deal of benefit from them. Its ass-backwards for monks to tank in leather armor better than, not only those in chain, but often those in plate as well.

[Brimztone]

If you plan to group with rogues a lot, the pet won't hold aggro off them very well if they do too much damage (even with all aggro reducing AAs) - neither water, neither air, neither relic pet with talok's taunting echoes. If they'll have to watch their aggro too much their DPS won't reach their full potential.
I have a question then. Which is more aggro. Two Mages burning the mob down and a cleric healing the pet, or rogues poking away? The 63 Air pet held aggro fine with two Mages nuking the mob and a cleric healing. Pet taunt was on of course, and I don't have Talok's yet.

[vistachiri]

Get a mage pet. They tank better, hold aggro better, don't buff beg, have gate, actually do DPS that registers, and don't loot corpses before they hit the ground.


rofl yeah they do most of those, relic pet tanks better than all the other pets of course, but the others arent all too shabby. Though whether they can really hold aggro on groups depends heavily on tlaloks taunting echoes from what I've seen. Til's intervening enchantment is also handy I'd suppose, though its difficult to see a concrete effect from it especially since I just got it a bit ago, but essentially its pretty much the same as the halfling death save thing afaik. Earthpet has pretty intense hps, can do rudimentary rootcc but then again his dps kinda blows comparitively, that and its very difficult to keep him tanking mobs with a rogue or a monk in the group as from what I've seen you generally have to keep repositioning him alot, cutting down a bit on what you can do casting dpswise, as he's generally further out than the aforementioned classes when you sic him on the mob (illusions, shrink etc, seem to help a little with this, the smaller illusions such as dwarf for example.). But you're better off w/a normal tank really, the few times I've had to have my pet tank for lack of a tank it wasnt very fun at all.

The 2 mages burning really would depend on which nukes they're using. If they're both bladewinding the hell out of something just mashing the button constantly, probably the mages. If they're just raining, or chaincasting scars of sigil, then I'd say the rogues easily by a longshot. Then too if the mages have subtlety matters as well. Were they trying to snatch aggro as a test? Or watching it normally? Normally I really havent seen much more than the occasional problem with snatching aggro off the pet by accident. But I've had melee's (especially before I got tlaloks) take aggro off it, though pet usually snatches it back w/a stun or a slow. Rouges are pretty tough highend to snatch back from, as are monks, and its not like they're doing anything to try to grab aggro most of the time. Though I must add the few rogues I've grouped with were pretty decent rogues, even at low levels.
Though also its dependant of course on how good the rogues are, what their weapons are etc. What aggro reduction they have. Really I dont think I've ever grouped with 2 rogues at once...so its difficult to tell, not like there are a veritable ton of them about.

@brimztone high priority on that one mate, its a happy little spell especially for soloing, you really have to try pretty hard or just not pay attention to snatch aggro off your pet solo w/it. In groups you wont use it much unless your pet is tanking or occasionally when you have a really good sk pulling aggro, then you can toss it on jic adds pop up.

[tinkaa]

I'm using relic pet, talok's taunting echoes, pet taunt on when soloing, duoing with my druid or farming together with my bf's shaman and rogue.

Even though both I and the rogue have all aggro reducing AAs, we still have to be very careful with pet's aggro. I always start off with a rain, usually followed by clicky MR debuff and then alternate between rains and nukes.
This works completely fine if I'm soloing, but if the rogue starts attacking soon (at let's say 90-95%), he almost always gets aggro at first backstab, which either means lots of evading for the rogue (thus less dps) or the rogue tanking (also less dps due to no backstabs).
When the rogue tanks, he usually also keeps aggro off my mage. I blame the procs on his weapons for that.

To sum things up, I don't think a mage pet is the best option when you need a tank.

[Brimztone]

As for the nukes the mages were using, I don't know what the other was using but I know I was using a combo of Scars and Shock of Sun. No aggro reducing items or AAs. We did let the pet get the mob down a good amount before we opened fire and it wasn't trying to take aggro, it was trying to kill the mob ASAP(It was the High Chanter in DFS).

Yeah, I know I need Talok's :) Theres a bunch of spells I still need, like the 63 Water and Fire pets, Storm of Steel, and a bunch others.

[moghedancarns]

Tinkaa, it is highly possible that the crowd you hang with have skills, abilities, and equipment far exceeding that of the average leveling up individual.

My comment was made half in jest... but only half.

[rascalrita]

Sorry for taking your steam away TheDude81321 or steering people away from answering your question but I have a similar one. I'm about to get started with a group of friends and right now the group is Pal/Wiz/Wiz, and whatever two I toss into the mix. I'm experienced from Game live and can handle pretty much any class well, although I have the most experience with the warrior.

Right now I was thinking of throwing in a bst/dru, a mnk/shm, or a war/shm, (yes I realize there is no cleric in this setup, but im not sure how high the group is going to go anyway, and I'm fond of experimental groups). I was wondering how well a beastlord pet could tank if it so happens to get agro from them pally also if another tank (such as the mnk or the war) is nessicary, from other posts i've been reading it doesn't seem to be. Any feedback on these or other suggestions for combo's are greatly appretiated.

Thank you in advance for any replies.

[Mythryn]

Going with a monk and either shaman or druid would probably be your best bet. Both healers would add healing/buffs/dps as well as the monk adding dps/pulling/offtanking

[vistachiri]

I'm using relic pet, talok's taunting echoes, pet taunt on when soloing, duoing with my druid or farming together with my bf's shaman and rogue.

Even though both I and the rogue have all aggro reducing AAs, we still have to be very careful with pet's aggro. I always start off with a rain, usually followed by clicky MR debuff and then alternate between rains and nukes.
This works completely fine if I'm soloing, but if the rogue starts attacking soon (at let's say 90-95%), he almost always gets aggro at first backstab, which either means lots of evading for the rogue (thus less dps) or the rogue tanking (also less dps due to no backstabs).
When the rogue tanks, he usually also keeps aggro off my mage. I blame the procs on his weapons for that.

To sum things up, I don't think a mage pet is the best option when you need a tank.


Definitely agree it isn't the best option but in a pinch it can work, though I havent headed out with many rogues where the pet was expected to tank, think the last time was back in the early 60's. Though roguewise the best I've grouped with easily pulled aggro off a real tank anyways. Earthpet might be a better choice if theres a rogue around that pulls it off too much but controlling one in a group when its expected to tank is a severe pain in the ass. Mostly b/c you have to readjust it quite a bit just so it winds up closest, dwarfing it then shrinking it helps a bit, but not too much. Still even with that said there are few places where the pet is going to be able to tank w/out a good healer watching it. Mielc in the beginning part is ok for pettanking, sirens toward the back side (not the mermaids..oh my lord no not the mermaids) Highkeep in the very beginning parts with the right group even a very small one, but not incredibly well, kedge the blade/spike/hammerfang route is a ok for pettanking even with a group a bit lower in the 60's, plaguelands and freeport are also viable options for pettanking, just don't go nuts and run up to the rotlord and the monk guild and flip them off and you'll be mostly fine. Puma's in the plaguelands can get a little nasty but if you've got a healer on the pet you should be fine.

@ rascalrita a monk would be a definite benefit later on especially if the group plans to go all the way eventually. They really start to shine once splitting becomes an issue. A cleric isn't a huge issue early on. Beast pets can tank better than magepets I'd think, as the beast petheals far better. Another benefit would be the beastbuffs once you get them which will take up the wiz dps quite a bit. You really shouldnt need another tank than the pally though and I wouldnt expect the pet to take aggro off a tank very often, mine does sometimes but then generally you're talking an autoproc every few seconds as the culprit. All I'd think you'd need to do to ensure it doesnt very often at all is just make sure pet taunt is off. If you really want an offtank with utility though you might want to try a bard, they can do tons and tons of stuff. As for shammy or druid, I'd probably say go with shammy, a shammy should be able to easily keep up healing in that group and so could a druid, but the shammy brings an awful lot of buffs to the table as well which is going to help your wiz dps (extra cha) your pally dps (str dex) his tanking (sta agi) etc etc etc. That and not having druid portage isnt a big issue w/a wiz handy.

If you want to mix it up even more you might consider convincing one of your friends to go with a mage as well. The ds can really help over the course of a session, and if the pally goes down pets are pretty decent at emergency tanking. The only real problem I see that could occur is if the pally drops you've got no one to rez him. But then that isnt such a huge issue either as long as he binds or the wiz picks him up.