Rangers - Archery

[Dujek]

I'm opening this just incase someone has an interesting idea but doesn't know where to put it.

Basically, archery needs to be re-done a little bit. The main concerns are that it doesn't perform up to par with rangers' expectations for a class-defining skill. Most rangers will opt for their melee weapons, as they tend to do more direct DPS and will usually have nice procs to add to over-all damage, not to mention the fact that it's easier to hit auto-attack and sit back than to keep pressing the same key over and over and over and over.

On top of this, archery is generally underpowered at lower levels. It's strong at the beginning, but as you move into the 30's, 40's and low 50's, there's really not much of a reason to use archery outside of bowkiting (which is incredibly lame in itself (and booooring)) as the selection of bows is rather limited and it really doesn't do any DPS compared to dual wield and double attack anyway.

Since I'm probably the person on staff who's had the most experience with archery and playing a ranger straight through from 1-64 (almost 65 ><), and since I care about the class and how it's viewed in group and raid situations, I've somewhat taken it upon myself to come up with a list of options and alternatives to make archery a lot more useful and desirable in the foreseeable future.

Changes to archery will most likely happen after the expansion is complete (as the staff is preoccupied with the development at the moment), and I'd prefer to have a big list of ideas as soon as we come around to it, instead of putting it off until something happens and having to deal with a lot of trial-and-error, bad ideas, frustration, etc.

The topics I've already got down are:

Innate bow critical hits.
Archery skill mods.
Archery buffs.

So there's no need to suggest any of these. There most likely won't be buffs that increase physical archery damage or increase hitrates or gives +%archery skill, so forget about those too. There could very well be, however, buffs that add procs or effects to archery. If you have any ideas about that, throw them down here (haha deathtouch? No.).

The major problem (as I see it) is the Archery Mastery AA. It's three steps (18 points) of a class AA (need pre-requisites and high level) that literally double your archery damage. Each step adds and extra +%damage to archery up to 100%.

Why is this a problem, you ask? Well, the problem is that it cripples archery DPS for anybody that doesn't have enough levels and AA to get the three steps. Who doesn't have levels and AAs :rolleyes:, you ask? Well, rangers between level one and fifty five, mainly. Not only that, but it means that anything related to archery HAS to be balanced for a ranger with AM3 in mind. That means that their archery is pathetically weak (50% of standard) until they blow all their AA on the skill (and I know all that AA was a waste now, but that'll change).

In my opinion, Archery Mastery needs to be changed to give another effect to the skill (that's not directly damage related), that's worth the 18AA some people have already spent. Or else, Archery Mastery has to be changed to give an effect wholly unrelated to archery, so that archery can be rebalanced without an AM3 Ranger in mind. Since we can't change AA structs, it has to be a three step AA, and has to be worth 3/6/9 points at the respective steps. This is where I've drawn a blank, and this is where you can help.

I'd like rangers and anybody (especially DarkArtist and Ravina) with ideas regarding archery and how it needs to be changed to throw down stuff as you think of it.

Anyways, keep this on-topic. This isn't a place to whine or start arguments, and I'll be deleting any posts that are inappropriate.

[Duma]

Havent played a Ranger since live but....


Maybe a short duration (6-18 sec) 3%, 6%, and 9% slow effect stackable with shm/enc slows?

Or equal chance to interupt spells (not stun)?

Or a combonation of such effects that add on to each other with each level purchased.

3aa's get you effect A.

6aa's gets you effect A plus effect B

9aa's gets you A, B, and C per shot.

Dont know if somehting like that is workable in the coding though.

[Dynia]

First I’ll start off by saying that I don’t like the idea of any skill being balanced based on the high end game. In essence you are saying that you have to powergame your way to high level, gain the xp to get your AAs, join a raiding guild to aquire a decent bow and then you can aspire to be the “norm.” Things like this tend to discourage casual players. That being said, I understand that with the set up of the server, the relatively low player population, and the high end game being geared towards raids, it is a necessary evil so I will tailor my suggestions based on this.

Archery buffs: This one seems the easiest to change. DD or DoT procs. You can make them similar to the melee procs we already get with different damage types and amount based on level. You can spice it up a bit by adding some undead-only, debuff, snare, etc. This could definitely make archery a more viable option for the mid-level rangers.

Archery Mastery: Changing the +%damage on this AA means changing a lot more in order to sustain (and hopefully increase) the dps output of a high level ranger. One suggestion would be to put it in line with Melee Mastery. First and second levels increase your chance to shoot a double shot. Upon reaching the third level, your check for double shot never fails. The only problem is, does that put us in the same place? With your chance-to-hit increasing as your gear/stats get better, this could be rewarding for those at really high level. Does that just mean the balance is going to be off of the UberRanger_001 that is lvl 65, has 500 AAs, all the finest raid gear and manages to hit all the double shots? Another downside to this option is reworking the future stamina styles so there is not redundancy.

Or

Archery Mastery: Each level allows you to increase your archery skill cap. This might be an easier solution to balancing the overall dps from low level to high level. By “might” I mean I have no idea if this can even be coded or if it will mess with the skill mods when they are fixed. My only concern with this is if the skill can be raised high enough where it would actually be worth 18+ AAs.

Equipment: Better bows and arrows. These are supposed to be coming with expansion… so I’ll just leave it at that.

The biggest problem as I see is giving the midbie rangers some archery dps while not demeaning the high level dps. It takes a decent amount of work to gain those lvls and AAs and it should be rewarded. As I said before, archery is a class defining skill. There should not be fear of making it overpowered by adding some dps. Other classes have their own unique situational skills. This is the ranger’s.

This is all I have for now. I’ll try and think of more and add to the discussion.

~Ravina Whisperwind~
65 Sentinel <Ruin>

[zukmar]

i think a chance to hit a mob with a % to interupt spells, or maybe if a crit lands a % to interupt

and automatic thing would be too powerful, but say a 30% chance to interupt a spell with a arrow

i think yall are touching on the concerns i have had with my ranger of late

[karm100fists]

I'm not in the high end or a ranger so maybe I should keep quiet, but this sounds like a brainstorming session so I'll throw some things out.

If procs are going to be an option for adding things they should be kind of weak, unresistable, and fire all the time. This would increase overall dps instead of burst dps, which is I think the point here.

Speratic proccing really doesn't increase overall dps that much unless its very powerful (in my experience)

Perhaps if you don't like that idea then the archery mastery could just add physical damage to the arrows fired?

Kind of like the arcane archer class from D&D :b. At the first level it would increase all arrow's damage's by 1 second level would increase them by a further 2 and the final one would be 3.

Of course this might be overpowering, I really don't know.

Anyways I'm tapped out.

[zarcath]

I'd really like to see more distinct combat-styles (that aren't related to disciplines) emerge. Like in the case of rangers, melee or bowing, or with monks, fists or feet.

-Z

[gummythetroll]

I just don't see what the big deal is with increasing archery damage by say 30 - 50 % across the board. It's so pitifully low at the moment it's not like the class is going to become overpowered. I've been grouping alot with a ranger with Eq/am3 and she says she's lucky to get a standard hit above 200 and this is with Nemmy's Headseeker (25/30).

What have they already lost in terms of dps?
-EQ doesnt work with magic arrows
-all atk buffs stripped away except for call of predator
-lvl 64 170dd self proc reduced to 80dd
-Archery damage made ridiculously low

You just dont see any other class that has been frankly "raped" of its abilities. Rogues and monks have been beefed up here and nobody says anything about that.

That being said, heres some of my suggestions

Archery Mastery
-------------------

AM1 - Summons a stack of 12 damage / 10 delay magic arrows. Reuse time: 5 minutes.

AM2 - Summons a stack of 15 damage / 15 delay magic arrows. Reuse time: 5 minutes.

AM3 - Summons a stack of 20 damage / 20 delay magic arrows. Reuse time: 5 minutes.

Maybe the third level could summon arrows with a proc effect too.


Alternatively:

AM1 - Gives the ranger the chance to perform a crippling blow at any point in the fight. (innate) Chance: 25%

AM2 - Increases AM1 to 35% and gives the ranger a 50% chance to fire a 2nd arrow.

AM3 - Increases AM1 to 45% and AM2 to 100%. (could maybe add a small unresistable dd proc too)


---
Now before anyone says, oh well that might be unbalanced I'd like you to consider that if these changes did happen, AM3 wouldn't still be giving the 30,60,100 % increase in bow damage. So it's not adding on top of what is already there, its replacing it and hopefully for the better.

But I do feel it necessary to say that I still think the overall best solution for time, balancing, work involved etc, is still to increase archery damage across the board by say 25% - 50%.

adding procs here and there or snares / interrupts is unworthy of the class AA and doesn't do much for sustained damage output.

[mwh]

Right now archery is underpowered to a extreme degree without AM3. With AM3, doubling your old damage, you basically do the exact same as your melee damage. This means pre-am3 rangers are doing prolly half the damage they should be doing if archery was balanced correctly, maybe even less. So, my suggestion, as long as you agree with what I just said...

1) Double across the board archery, making it as if all rangers had the old AM3. This would put archery and melee dps on the same level. If you think that rangers should always do more dps with bows than melees perhaps a 110% across the board boost.

2) Make AM3 like the other combat skills, offering improvements that are smaller, but yet still well worth it. Perhaps a 5/10/20 improvement, would put archery at 20% more than melee. Surely a AM3 ranger deserves to do 20% more damage than one without it.



These suggestions would let rangers of all levels enjoy using bows and have them as a viable option, as well as making archery dps more along the lines of being a reason to pick rangers for highlvl raiding.

[gummythetroll]

I actually like Khalid's suggestion for the most part. I think it's ridiculous that rangers should have to spend 18 AA's just to bring their bow damage on par with their melee, as it currently is.

They should be doing equal damage with both types innately, if not a little more with a bow when considering roleplay aspects. I dont like the idea of spending 18AA for 20% increase however. This just seems too low.

While i understand there is a need to increase it conservatively to maintain the integrity of the custom world, I think it would have to be a little more or at least include another effect, to make it really a class defining skill.

If i may expand on Khalid's suggestion:


AM1 - 30% increase in damage, 5% chance to do a crippling blow.
AM2 - 40% increase in damage, 10% chance to do a crippling blow.
AM3 - 50% increase in damage, 15% chance to a crippling blow.

This is provided that archery damage tables are increased as per Khalids example.

It's still nowhere near the damage output of Live rangers, not by a long shot, but I'm sure most rangers would be very satisfied with this change. If this happens, rangers could be doing 50% more damage when using a bow over their melee, and they have a very small chance to get a crippling blow here and there.

It's important that Rangers are given something to compensate for the lowered damage output that they expect to receive upon reaching level 60, and earning 40+aa to gain these skills. Simply lowering the damage by a half is lazy and unimaginative and I expect will lead to our rangers leaving WR (especially considering what has already been stripped from them)

[bobothedino]

I'd like to start by saying that that I dont agree with the idea that archery balancing has to be done with taking into account rangers with AM3. Am3 is a skill unique to rangers which was supposed to allow them to go above and beyond the normal confines of archery damage. The way it seems right now is its sort of like curing the disease by killing the patient. If you wanted archery damage to remain low, you should have just lowered the damage increase in Archery Mastery from the beginning instead of modifying archery damage tables and ending up with the mess that it's in now.

Anyway heres some of my ideas.
--------------------
Assuming that the average archery hit right now is about 75 damage with a pretty bog standard bow like Crystalline bow (30/40) and that a "rebalanced" archery hit would be close to 100.
--------------------

Archery Mastery : Activated skill, Refresh : 10 minutes.

AM1 - Fires 10 shots instantly doing between 1 and 2 times normal damage for each shot. MIN dmg : 1k, MAX dmg: 2k.

AM2 - Fires 10 shots instantly doing between 1 and 3 times normal damage for each shot. MIN dmg : 1k, MAX dmg: 3k.

AM3 - Fires 10 shots instantly doing between 1 and 4 times normal damage each shot. MIN dmg : 1k, MAX dmg: 4k.

This would sort of make Archery Mastery like a mana burn skill but obviously nowhere near as powerful or effective.

OR

AM1 - 50% chance to fire a 2nd arrow.
AM2 - If AM1 check is successful, chance to fire a 3rd arrow.
AM3 - If AM2 check is successful, chance to fire a 4th arrow.

Someone good at stats could work out the probabilities and % chance.
Maybe each stage could also include a percentage chance to fire a "Head Shot" instantly slaying an NPC below level 54.

[Nuralia]

Just a note, Archery Mastery has to be a passive skill, it cannot be made into an active skill due to client restrictions.

And a little update. There are plans to up archery across the board and make AM increase it in smaller increments. This would make archery a little more interesting for non-rangers, while still making rangers the best archers and respectable DPS. Feel free to keep brainstorming, though. Ideas are always nice. :)

[Bhalorin]

Make archery mastery giving you a chance to do double attacks on bows. Giving archer a 10 / 25 / 50 percent to do double attacks. Increase Archery damage as a whole with innate crits so that AAed archer only deals 50% more damage then without AA, instead of a whooping 100.

[gummythetroll]

And a little update. There are plans to up archery across the board and make AM increase it in smaller increments. This would make archery a little more interesting for non-rangers, while still making rangers the best archers and respectable DPS. Feel free to keep brainstorming, though. Ideas are always nice. :)


i'm very interested to know what preliminary % changes are being considered at this point.

What % is archery going to be upped by
What % is AM increments going to be

or at least what kind of % difference in overall dps is being considered for rangers with AM3 under the new archery system in comparison with the current system.

[Jaril Bloodyblade]

Few suggestions to improve archery across the board..

1) Ranged Auto Attack (or make it possible to make a macro that will repeat the ranged attack action until you turn it off)

2) Rangers should get a 10% natural chance to crit with a bow increasing to 15%, 20%, and 25% respectively through AM1, AM2, AM3.. (before you look into over/underblancing factors.. 25% is a VERY high chance to preform a critical attack that will add over a hundred damage to one attack every 4 hits..

3) Make it possible to purchase high level arrow fletching supplies once fletching is implemented at a much reduced cost to the user.. and able to craft magic arrows at 1 stack per arrow head and shaft.. (this way can build arrows at aprox 1/20th the cost, provided you get high enough fletching skill.. and the requirement to make the good arrows should be fairly high to be a money sink for higher level rangers and other ranged professions that want to rely on their bows yet make it worth wile in cost/effectiveness.. highest level arrows made by fletching could rival the current arrows by being 6... 7.. maybe even 8 damage, but with a magic tag so EQ cannot be used with them.. makes a nice money sink for a charactor class while offering them a major boost in damage for an effective cost.)

4) Rangers should have a group archery accuracy buff that adds an extra 20, 40, and 60% to accuracies as well as 1, 3, and 5% crit chance on an archery attack.. This way it will slightly improve chances for non ranger classes to actually score a critical hit with their bows.. it will also improve the rangers chance to critical hit with their own bows.. To compensate for that, and I know alot of other classes are going to hate this idea, but remove the chance to critical on a bow attack through the means of AA Fury advancements that should only give a chance to critical in melee combat.. If you think about it for a while, rangers are the only ones that should be able to critical with a bow.. or to be fair to the other classes, at least cut the chances to critical with a bow through alternate means (IE Warrior natural crit chance or melee crit AA..) in half.

5) A new stamina style set for rangers that augments archery use.. as well as a few defensive melee styles.. maybe one offensive one. Just a few of the ideas for the new archery styles..

Point Blank Shot - Level 20: As the ranger gets more intimate with their bows, they learn to make quick shots at a close range that arent quite as powerful as when they are able to fully aim their bow, yet the close range execution makes it worth wile.. = Ranger removes the range restictions from their archery attacks, allowing them to execute less damaging shots while in melee range of the target and while under attack.

Snipe - Level 30: A ranger is very proficient with their bows and through training have improved their vision allowing them to shoot targets further away without bringing attention to themselves. These long distance attacks usually require precise aiming and increase both damage and delay of another attack significantly.. = Ranger extends the max damage of their allowed attack by 50 meters, also adding the effect that if the target is over 100 meters away it will not gain aid from it's friends allowing the ranger to pull a target more successfully. This style Doubles the amount of damage the ranger does with their bow, yet triples the delay of attacking again..

Improved Point Blank Shot - Level 50: After a lifetime of familiarizing themselves with their bows rangers are able to attack at any range without a second thought. = All bow damage executed in point blank range does the normal ranged damage for a ranger.

Rangers Fury - Level 60: Complete mastery of their bows allow the ranger to make quick, damaging shots to the target sacrificing their overall precision for speed and power.. = Damage is multiplied by 150% and delay is cut in half.. however precision takes a major hit cutting them down by 75% (this one is designed for the rangers that do have the archery buffs, and Archery Mastery will increase their precision so they break about even if they werent using this style, but also didnt have Archery Mastery or the buffs.)

Those are just a few ideas I had for the ranger class to compensate for their bow usage. :)

[dannin]

quiver haste would be another way to improve archery dps... make the really good quivers (or all quivers) ranger only to keep them ahead of others in the archery department

[Wiz]

AM has been changed to a max of 50% extra damage. Archery has been considerably increased in base damage, especially if you use good arrows.

[gummythetroll]

AM has been changed to a max of 50% extra damage. Archery has been considerably increased in base damage, especially if you use good arrows.


Is this the final modification to AM3?

[LeeK]

what dps is sutabele for a ranger in compareance to say a rogue or monk?

according to developer that is?


If lets say a rogue (when standing behind mob) dich out 150 dps, would a reanger with same "standard" of eqip and buffs dich out 50, 74,100 or 125 dps?

just wanna know what develpers hade in mind?

i totaly understand that balancing ranger Archery from 1-65 is a real hard task, hopefully is high on prio list and i know developers working there asses of to get all us players happy =)


best regards
(p.s im a dyslectic(?), so no flame d.s)
/LeeK

[daimyo]

The change in archery damage is a nice improvement but I have mixed feelings about it.

It still doesn't seem enough on it's own, especially considering AM3 has been halved. It also seems like the x2 bonus against non-moving, non-rooted targets which rangers have, is either gone or not working properly.

I've noticed absolutely no difference in damage between hitting moving targets or still ones. So to spice things up a little and make am3 truely a class-defining skill for rangers I think it would be cool if the following was added:

Am1 - 15% increased damage, 25% chance to land x2 bonus on any target, moving or not.

am2 - 25% increased damage, 50% chance to land x2 bonus on any target, moving or not.

am3 - 50% increased damage, and ranger will always do x2 bonus on any target, moving or otherwise.

So with this change, a ranger with AM3 can effectively do the same damage to moving targets (i.e. when bow-kiting) as he/she could do against non-moving targets (i.e. in a group ) making him/her a true master of archery.



---------
Dukat
http://www.wintersroar.com/wanelo/chardump.php?charid=110280

[daimyo]

Can we have some feedback from the devs as to which ideas are being developed/ considered for improving archery further for rangers, particularly with regards to Archery Mastery.


-------
Dukat

[Deathpoint]

Hi, I play a low level ranger and I would like to chime in on this as it seems the high end game (AM etc) has plenty of discussion going for it.

My problem with the whole discussion is this. It's all about change this AA or that AA, but what about the low level rangers that don't want to be green tree loving rogues - backstab - evade? The speacilty that is archery, if it is to be associated with and distributed to rangers, should in my opinion be done so in a unique and even manner spanning the whole of a rangers lifespan, topped off with AA's worthy of the time it takes to aquire them.

Yea, the increase in damage helped ranger bow damage, which is good, but it helped everyone, which is also good. At the same time, however, it didn't change the fact that there is nothing unique or better about a rangers ability to use a bow pre 55 65.

My suggestions will be based around the idea of making archery better for the young rangers without diving into end game rangerdom since I know little of it.

1. Enable Trueshot for Rangers at level 1:

Why not? Sks and pallies don't have to wait till 55 for their timered abilites. Not possible to do this? Create a level 1 ranger spell called Trueshot(becomes disabled at 55) with same or slightly modfied properties :D

---- Gives lower level rangers a unique archery related skill.

2. Switch the level 20 and 45? 2 arrow style level reqs:

Adjust occordinaly(as in stamina lvl req rises with level or whatever) without messing with how it works 45?+

--- This gives the low level ranger something to work for and a unique archery ability. It's easy to balance because the ability scales with level and equip. High levels already have it so it doesn't add to the high end power curve, and low levels have weaker skill, bows, arrows etc so the effect is weaker.

Alternate idea: Replace the 20th style with something actually good that has to do with archery.

3. Non moving, non rooted ranger archery damage adjustment:

I don't know but this seems like such a simple and good idea to me. The following numbers are examples nothing more.

Level 19-29: 6x mod

Level 30-39: 5.5x mod

Level 40-49: 4x mod

Level 50-54: 3x mod

Level 55- 65: 2x mod(whatever current mod is)


---- You see I don't think the awnser is always going to be in abilities that get better with time because of the difficulty in balancing equipment and sudden addition of AA's etc. This idea of upwards degression should be considered with relation to the implementation of both previous ideas and any other ability that needs to be scaled properly for high level balance. This allows for implementation of low end content without damaging high end content.


Well, that's just a few of the ideas I have. Hope you like them.

[limitedthoughts]

What about if rangers get more damage bonus on bows then melee weapons.

Maybe double then if they use a melee weapon?

*shrug*

[Foonie]

Damage bonus isn't implemented on WR.

[limitedthoughts]

So your saying when i look at my weapon and it says i have +20 to damage its not added?

[Foonie]

That is correct. The damage bonus aren't working - on purpose. The combat system on WR is different from live, therefor we aren't in need of damage bonuses.

[Bernat]

May I ask why is WR combat system different from live? Do you mean that you use different formulas to calculate damage?

[limitedthoughts]

So your saying when my sword says it has a damage bonus of 15 it truely isnt giving me 15 more damage? Then why is it there?

[Nuralia]

It's hard-wired into the client to show a damage bonus related to the delay of the weapon. We can't remove it.

[AntoneX6]

Bonus damage doesn't work? Hmm..what about the other damage one? Like Magic Dmg 'X" or Fire Damage "X"....etc. Not the same thing right? And that works?

[Foonie]

Well, as I said. They aren't working because our attack formulars and such work differently. Bane damages and such should work.

[limitedthoughts]

So can you explaine how the full combat / damage system works so i can understand cause i think im getting confused.

[Zoink]

The first char I played in EQ was a ranger, and the biggest gripe I had with em was the fact that you couldn't efficiently use bows pre AM3/EQ. I think it would be great to see archery be the highest damage a ranger could do 1-65. Archers are a staple to any fantasy world and the ranger being a woodsman/hunter type just seems to imply an excellent archery skill. You dont hunt with dual wield =P.

Warcraft was able to do this with the Hunter class. I really liked how a hunters ranged dps was his best, with melee being less. It just seems to make sense that an excellent archer might only be a good melee. If I wanted to be the supreme melee dps'er, I would probly be more interested in playing a rogue.

I would personally like to see a rangers base range dmg be linear 1-65 and be on par with other classes melee dps. I dont really have any good ideas for am1-3 other than they be onpar with other classes dmg increase. Not only that, but people pick those up solely to be able to use archery. If archery were already a viable source of dps pre am3/eq rangers might honestly not be interested in picking those up and go for other AAs. We live in the mindset of EQlive were every ranger HAS to get those skills. This doesnt have to be EQlive. I would be ecstatic if archery was linear 1-65 and AM1-3 was only a slight increase. I probly wouldnt even buy em and go for LR5! or something. There are a ton of great AA's besides AM. It would be nice to know you could actually choose your first AA's instead of having your first 45 pts already chosen. I hated the way EQ was "get to 60 so you begin playing". With rangers, it was get to 60 + 45 aas. It would be so cool to be standing back, plucking your bow in your first blackburrow group =)

I was also reading a post about putting in triple attack for rangers, so that the ones without am3/eq could still get groups. If you made archery dps linear instead of a flat line with a huge spike at the end(as in EQlive), the problem would be solved. Maybe some rangers want to melee, but I dont. Thats the reason I chose this class. So to sum up my personal opinion,

1. Make archery the MAIN dps damage for a ranger 1-65.
2. Make it on par with with other classes melee dps.
3. Make rangers melee dps, be 20-30% less than ranged, whatever is fair to balance it out.
4. If this is implemented you could just completely delete/erase am1-3 and I wouldn't even care. The ONLY reason people pick up am1-3 is to even be able to use archery.

I understand this would be a complete overhaul to what we are familiar with from EQlive, but I would say thats the point of playing on an emulator instead of EQlive =)

Zoink
5 Ranger

[dbum]

And the Dead shall live...

Anyways, the only issue with making Bow Damage be on par 1-65 is that if AM is left in - then it needs to be changed in function or the ranger will then kill melees in DPS (if their bow already does the same damage).

Also, if Ranger melee skills are reduced, then low level rangers are forced to use archery which is not exactly cheap. So in order to do this, Rangers need to spend majority of their time farming money so they can afford arrows. Or if you lower the cost of arrows, then you change the economy of the ranger and you not only make AM less useful but EQ as well.

I would like to see archery improved, but increasing archery DPS is not the answer in my opinion. I would say reducing the cost of fletching would be the most viable (at least for low end fletching or make arrows more easily obtainable without having a mage nearby). This allows a ranger to roleplay with archery throughout leveling but doesnt jeapordize balancing issues both between classes and with perhaps the 2 most anticipated Ranger AA's.

Another suggestion that I think would be interesting - allow Ranger's to forage arrows in wooden zones.

[Yally]

shooting an NPC with an arrow should somehow allow for arrows to drop as loot from its corpse. Of course, only if that could be coded. Perhaps each succesful archery 'strike' on an NPC could give a super low % chance of an arrow spawning on the ground there maybe?

[Zoink]

Anyways, the only issue with making Bow Damage be on par 1-65 is that if AM is left in - then it needs to be changed in function or the ranger will then kill melees in DPS (if their bow already does the same damage).

I have no objections personally to am3 being changed to a non dps increasing function, or a fairly reduced increase in dps from am3.

Also, if Ranger melee skills are reduced, then low level rangers are forced to use archery which is not exactly cheap. So in order to do this, Rangers need to spend majority of their time farming money so they can afford arrows. Or if you lower the cost of arrows, then you change the economy of the ranger and you not only make AM less useful but EQ as well.

If archery is not a viable option atm, then there is no economy for arrows anyway. I would have no problem making and using arrows as long as the cost was adjusted so it wasnt too out of control. AM being less useful would not bother me too much if I could use archery as viable dps from lvl 1. Also, with highend arrows that are hard to produce and are therefore somewhat rare, EQ is definitly worth it.

I would like to see archery improved, but increasing archery DPS is not the answer in my opinion. I would say reducing the cost of fletching would be the most viable (at least for low end fletching or make arrows more easily obtainable without having a mage nearby). This allows a ranger to roleplay with archery throughout leveling but doesnt jeapordize balancing issues both between classes and with perhaps the 2 most anticipated Ranger AA's.

I guess I dont see what the balancing issue would be, if you made a rangers archery dps comparable to what his dps would be in the current system with melee. As long as the dps is the same, who cares where its coming from? The reason AM3/EQ are the 2 most anticipated AA's is cause finally after 65 lvls and 45 AAs you actually get to use a bow! When you open up your character window, the ranger symbol is a bow, yet most rangers never get to the point to use one. If being able to use a bow 1-65 means the dismantling of AM3, then I'm all for it. You can just delete em and not replace them with something else for all I care. Hunters in WoW get viable ranged attack from day one and it seems to work pretty good.

The only problem I forsee is carting around all that ammo. In wow it stacks in stacks of 200. You can burn through stacks of 20 pretty quick. Not sure if this is something that could be recoded. Or maybe having quivers with 40slots =P

[Aeran]

Sorry to be a stick in the mud, but I disagree wholeheartedly with the last few posts. In my opinion everything is perfect and dandy and not a single thing should be touched regarding archery.

I basically leveled up from 1-60 bowkiting solo. I bought the cheapest 1 dmg arrows in mass (5 bags or so at a time) and just bowkited every mob, and exp flew. I did NOT have to farm for money to buy them (a stack is like 5 silver), since if you hunt the right mobs (which still give awesome exp) you'll be able to cover those costs and then some. At level 50-60 I was extremely happy with my archery damage, even though I didnt have EQ/AM3. At 65 pre-EQ/AM3 I was still happy. If we made those AA's useless or non-DPS by having our archery start out better than it already is, then no one will have to work to get really good at archery. In my opinion you get what you work for, getting 65 and 45 AA's to get the epitome of ranger AA's and have your archery go through the roof is incredibly fair. At lower levels you just arent as good, because your skills arent as good, because you're not using the best equiptment, because you dont have the AA's - this is how it should be.

When a character starts out, he/she does what it takes to get through the levels to specialize in their area of expertise, even if thats different from what they used to get there. Simply because a ranger is known to be an archer (and is by far the best at higher levels) does not mean that archery has to be their best bet when they're young. Rogues in the high end use peircers for their best damage, but you may see many rogues 1-65 using 1hs weapons, simply because at that point in time, thats the best thing they can use. Wizards are the masters of magic and nukes, but early on they will wield their dagger and go toe to toe. I'm strongly against the idea of making archery better and melee worse: Rangers are half druid and half warrior. In the lower levels (and even the higher ones) they may be required to tank - this wouldnt be very fun with even worse melee.

Bottom line: Please dont change anything with ranger archery.

[Haisei]

The one thing i'm not happy with is EQ working only for arrows under 3 dmg considering it costs 9AAs. Granted 9 AAs don't take terribly long to get but compared to other AAs isn't this almost useless?

[Wiz]

The one thing i'm not happy with is EQ working only for arrows under 3 dmg considering it costs 9AAs. Granted 9 AAs don't take terribly long to get but compared to other AAs isn't this almost useless?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: You don't know what you're talking about.

[Haisei]

Well, so I do know what i'm talking about next time, could I get an explanation of that cryptic message I just received? :)

[rab]

If rangers could use arrows higher than 3 for EQ, they do roughly rogue DPS. By using 3 dmg arrows, they only do about monk dps. So if you want to be a super-DPS-but-out-melee-range ranger, you have to fork up the cash and inventory space to do so.

[dbum]

I really am not asking for any changes with archery - I was fine with how things are with archery. I just didn't believe that rangers diserved better bow damage 1-65 w/o AA's.

I just thought it would be nice to have the ability to acquire arrows on occasion without having to pay for them or summon them - such as foraging them in wooden zones or seeing more mobs drop arrows.

[Nuncio]

I think what would be nice is a whole range of 'aimed' shots available to rangers.

Crippling Shot
The ranger 'aims' for a specific part of the mobs body. If the hit is succesful, it seriously hinders the ability of the mobs ability to defend itself fight back (make it drop AC, STR, AGI and DEX)
This shot takes time to set up properly, so lets say 3 seconds between pulling back the bowstring adn releasing it.
Ranger may not do another aimed shot for 4 seconds.

Hamstring Shot
The ranger 'aims' for the tendon at the back of the mobs leg. If he gets it, the mob is PERMANTLY snared for the rest of the fight. This is a tricky shot. 4.5 seconds from pulling the bowstring back to release.
Ranger may not make another aimed shot for 6 seconds.

Dirty FighterShot
The ranger aims for an eye. If succesful, the mob is stunned for 1 second, and ATK is dropped by some percentage for 1 tick because it can't see worth a damn. 2.5 seconds to make this shot, can only be used once every 2 minutes, and cant make another aimed shot for 6 seconds.

See wher I'm going with this?
Any number of things like this could be done.

Something likethis woud be pretty cool, imo.

[Zoink]

Sorry to be a stick in the mud

Damn you!! =P hehe



When a character starts out, he/she does what it takes to get through the levels to specialize in their area of expertise, even if thats different from what they used to get there. Simply because a ranger is known to be an archer (and is by far the best at higher levels) does not mean that archery has to be their best bet when they're young. Rogues in the high end use peircers for their best damage, but you may see many rogues 1-65 using 1hs weapons, simply because at that point in time, thats the best thing they can use. Wizards are the masters of magic and nukes, but early on they will wield their dagger and go toe to toe. I'm strongly against the idea of making archery better and melee worse: Rangers are half druid and half warrior. In the lower levels (and even the higher ones) they may be required to tank - this wouldnt be very fun with even worse melee.

I'll admit right off the bat that my perspective is based what I wish the ranger was vs. what it is in eqlive. Would it be that hard to lvl up and get my AAs and have archery? nope. I guess my point is that this puts rangers into the hurry up and get there to start having fun mode, one of the things I felt was a drawback to EQ. Blow thru the early lvls so that you can actually start playing. From what I've gleaned so far WR is trying to put in content 1-65 to make adventuring more fun. I've done my share of lvling up as quick as I can in order to "have fun" in EQ and WoW, and I would prefer to actually see and enjoy the content. Can you see and enjoy the content meleeing and not using archery? sure can. But, I know that I would have more fun going thru the content being able to use a bow and it seems from this post, that other people share this opinion. Dunno, maybe archery is fine atm with the specialize and with the general boost.

[Aeran]

Again, sorry to so anti-change but ...

Nuncio: Those delays would have to be modified with respect to each bows delay, as a ranger using a Kedgemetal Crossbow (55 delay) could use Crippling shot indefinately and a Hamstring shot almost indefinately.
While these are pretty good ideas, I have a few issues with them. Crippling shot as is gives a chance to do a critical shot when you score a critical hit (this makes it 4x the damage, instead of 2x). This, IIRC, is available to other classes as well in the same form, and in my opinion should not be replaced. Perhaps a less useful AA can be changed. Also, will this debuff stack with others? Because if a ranger is soloing, this wont do anything, and if its in a group situation chances are there is a debuffer. Hamstring shot: how much would you want this AA to be? because as I see it it wont be terribly useful. Ensnare costs negligible mana (you can recover the amount unbuffed in the time it takes to kill a mob solo for perpetual kiting) and lasts a whole 6 minutes. In a group (or even solo) situation an exp mob is not going to last anywhere remotely close to that long, so we have the effect already without the AA.

Zoink: I agree that it would be more fun for a ranger to be better at arching from the low levels. However, seeing as how easy it was for me to solo through those levels, I would assume it would cause some imbalance in terms of soloability. Archery here is much better than on live (at all levels) so that should fix a little of the comparisons between those two, and arrows are not hard nor expensive to get at all (maybe long runs from exp zones to fletchers, but thats the price you pay). I havent played a low level ranger for a while, but if I'm not mistaken archery is already good and a viable option for any level ranger.

[Nuncio]

wouldnt make these AAs, and I would not allow weapons delays to affect the 'recast' time of these aimed shots. Crippling shot, whatever, name it something else. These were ideas for skills, to get the point across of HOW this would work. These would basically be ranger spells that require a bow, an arrow, some skill and being a ranger.
Yes, rangers have snare in spell form. I'd relace it with this bow skill to define the ranger as a bow character.
Have many, many of these skills available, some at low level, something to define rangers as THE bow wielding class.

[Zoink]

Zoink: I agree that it would be more fun for a ranger to be better at arching from the low levels. However, seeing as how easy it was for me to solo through those levels, I would assume it would cause some imbalance in terms of soloability. Archery here is much better than on live (at all levels) so that should fix a little of the comparisons between those two, and arrows are not hard nor expensive to get at all (maybe long runs from exp zones to fletchers, but thats the price you pay). I havent played a low level ranger for a while, but if I'm not mistaken archery is already good and a viable option for any level ranger.

Yeah, I'm only at lvl 8 =P. Guess I was throwing ideas out there from an eqlive perspective. I think I'll check out how archery is atm and see what I think at that point.

[Avory]

After playing live for many many years I quit and found sod, I heard Archery was leet at high end game so I did just as the OP said, I power gamed my toon up to get there.

Fixs that would work both here and on live IMO.

AM1 is innate at level 1
AM2 is innate at level 30
AM3 is innate at level 60
If it can be made so AM1-3 is no longer giving the % boost through aa that would be great.

Now the actual AA AM1-3 should be givin like

AM1 = A crit shot you hit a key for, like Backstab. A Snipershot, depending how strong you want to make if its useable every 6-12 seconds for repop.

AM2 = just a stronger version of AM1's Snipershot.

AM3 = again a stronger version of the Snipershot.

Also I don't understand in any way why rangers don't get a auto bow. I feel there is simply not a singal argument againt it. The best argument I have heard is it would make a ranger easy to bot, I don't understand how that is a bad thing being no other class requiers so much attention to bot. If something like sniper shot is in the game then you would still need to be paying attention if you want to get that bost to your dps.

I also hate proc's off bows, in sod it's really bad because much like not giving an auto bow someone feels they need to add outright retarded effects as the proc, shadowstep and AE nukes...

I'd liek to say that I love the ranger in SoD to the point where I would never go back to EQlive, this is what I always wanted but if they are looking for ways to make things progress I will share =D.

[robopirateninja]

I'm just wondering if you realize that this thread is five years old and rangers have received many changes since then.

[Syalara]

Whoa. I nearly pooped when I scrolled up and saw a post from Aeran...then I looked at the date. This is a pretty impressive thread rez.

As to your auto shot thing, its been discussed many times and shot down every one. I'll refer you to a recent(ish) discussion about it here (http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=17179&highlight=auto+shot)

Do not discount the reasons against it by trying to counter that other classes may be easy to bot. That is really not an argument, its more of a...lets dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.

As to your AM ideas, I will not comment but archery has changed a lot since 04/05 so you may wish to create a new thread since much of the info in this one is likely no longer accurate.

[Avory]

Whoa. I nearly pooped when I scrolled up and saw a post from Aeran...then I looked at the date. This is a pretty impressive thread rez.

As to your auto shot thing, its been discussed many times and shot down every one. I'll refer you to a recent(ish) discussion about it here (http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=17179&highlight=auto+shot)

Do not discount the reasons against it by trying to counter that other classes may be easy to bot. That is really not an argument, its more of a...lets dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.

As to your AM ideas, I will not comment but archery has changed a lot since 04/05 so you may wish to create a new thread since much of the info in this one is likely no longer accurate.

Is archery usefull that I am unawear of without AM1-2-3? I was just doing searchs on archery and saw this thread, I knew it was older but as I read the OP it didn't strike me as out of date as to how things are. Just so we are clear I in no way asked or hinted at giving rangers more DPS with archery, just making it usefull before 55 and 51 aa's.

[Cyzaine]

Changes to archery will most likely happen after the expansion is complete (as the staff is preoccupied with the development at the moment)...
Man...

[Waldoff]

Wrong expansion Tyrsell. The Return one already happened =p

[Dzillon]

Man I saw first post from this guy who gave his name to a spell.
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