General Bullshit About Today's Patch

[Sean]

It goes here. I don't want five hundred threads, and I don't want the buglist full of incoherent ramblings about what your dog ate for dinner and how badly his shit stunk when he left a loaf in your shoe.

Yes, experience against blue cons sucks right now at level 60.

No, I won't tell you where spells come from.

No, I am not your friend.

Yes, I will take retaliatory action if you act retarded in this thread.

There are your ground rules.

[Darwin]

Currently there is a party of us doing Mielech for exp.

60 Rogue
60 Pally
60 Warrior
60 Wizard

The Rogue see's a severe cut in his DPS, BS' from the 1000 range are down now to around 400 per hit on blue frogloks. I've noticed my DPS on froglok's is down to about 30 with a 19 damage weapon, and around 60-100 on 30 damage weapon. Warrior also noticed a severe lack of DPS on his part, and the Wizard finally is noticing a huge change in the balance of his resists and general DPS. While compared to the DPS/HP of mobs, it's simply not a balanced risk vs reward situation. Our cleric has trouble with mana levels due to the amount of DPS the mobs are pumping out, vs our DPS against it.

I'm not here complaining simply stating what I've seen and saying that indeed balance issues need to be looked at. Sean also as he stated said blue mobs are simply not giving enough experience, It took about 20-25 mins for us to down 5 blue frogs and 1 blue golem, warranting us with 1% of our levels.

Regards,
Darwin

[Darwin]

Addium with numbers:
Note: DPS Then are based off old DPS numbers that people remember. New are based off DPS reports during Mielech group.

Darwin Then: 70 DPS
Darwin Now: 35 DPS
Skar Then: 166 DPS
Skar Now 84 DPS
Izzn Then: 350+ DPS
Izzn Now: 125 DPS
Erig Then: 90 DPS
Erig Now: 50 DPS

[ylyndar]

60 shaman here, Just got done grouping for 2 hours with a 60 pally/ranger/enchanter in the labyrinth

Observations- (with 190+ charisma)

App. a 25% resist rate on slows on trash mobs(kobold clansmen/hailsmen etc)

cast 1 nuke, partially resisted (292 out of possible 680)

went from sitting during a fight(mob not aggroed on me at that point while sitting) stood up, cast 1 of my 1250pt heals, got aggro for app 5-10 seconds, couldn't sit again for at least 30 seconds

Controlled golem, resisted slow 3 times, finally slowed, group wiped due to using all my mana in healing(while using canni and canni 5 once)
went back and tried it again(this is a mob that we previously had no problem with) cast malo first, about 8 seconds after engage, got aggro on me, died while trying to channel a torpor.

[Haze]

Well on top of all the obvious dps cuts, I notice some mobs hitting much harder, for sure in akheva mobs were hitting up to 650, normal trash mobs; on a level 60 warrior. {edit parsed DPS}

Khalid [60 Paladin] 34.49
Zanab [Enchanter Pet] 34.45

some fights pet had more than khalid AND pugg [ 60 warrior]

I also Tash at 95% and pull aggro as well as pull aggro slowing mob at 80%.

With 255 charisma, my slow was resisted WITH tash maybe 1/5 times.

Did I mention the a treant in miswoods landing every spell on me, and about kicking my ass while trying to just out run it to erimal? Took me to 40-45% just in that run from druid ring.

The so called *new* jewelcraft trivials are worthless im only 250 jewelcrafter on server and after patch I fail three damn diamond combines in a row? how would I ever make profit losing THREE diamonds plus THREE plat bars. I'm really upset about this too, seeing as I was told JC would recieve a HUGE overhaul. So I think diamond combines should work now, but nah im out 375p in plat bars plus around 1.5k in diamonds I could of sold to the playerbase, or use for epics.

Also I think the normal xp needs to be upped alot, I quit EQlive because of the hours of slow xp end on end, I liked WR for the semi fast pace setting. I would probabaly consider quitting if it isnt upped.

[Dhaos]

I put some stuff in the two shared bank slots cause I ran out of regular bank slots. These items are now gone. Any chance on getting them back?

[maddctr]

:censored: :sadf: :brow: :? :censored: :censored: :censored:


Firstly we all know melee and caster dps went down the shitter, ill get logs from waz and khalid from seb velks and akheva posted...This lack of dps leading to alot of the agro problems.
Secondly the rate at which critical melee hits go off are lolf atm, I can count the crits I had occur from pugg from tanking all night on my 2 hands.
3rd Mobs are hitting for WAAAAY too much in akheva, trash mobs are now very crappy xp with the skinner box basis of risk vs. reward. This may be applied to lack of sustained DPS, but also to the higher need of HPS and the lack of DPS to cover the heightened agro from more heals needed.
4th...Non-melee damage is not being registered as such.
5th...I'ma chop off daemuls head for gating on us in akheva cause she's the most worthless cleric I have ever laid eyes on. :mad:
6th Warrens paws turn in is now the most beneficial xp , with Risk vs. Reward.... Will add more later :brow:


______________________________________________

Lokdar Lorduk 60 oracle
Guildleader of Ruin

"I am illiterate" :finger:

[Mongrel]

I gotta say, this patch had a lot of surprises in it. Not going to say something about DPS and aggro since that's already covered, but, man, seriously, you have to tell us that feign death is no longer a 100% mem wipe.

Causing a train simply because noone informed you isn't fun.

This is important and shouldn't fall under the "general balance tweaks here and there" category.

Edit: Just to clarify: The change itself is ok, it's the information policy that could be improved "here and there".

[Duma]

Anti-summon spell "Banishment" no longer hits for what it should. Before patch it was about a 1200 dd for 325 mana against summoned creatures, now it is a pathetic 1000 dd for 325 mana AND a LONG RECAST. This is WORSE than my mages general Seeking Flame of Seuker spell and costs 5 mana MORE! Mages are supposed to have greater power against summoned creatures, this spell is now COMPLETELY USELESS! It takes Bane Enhance 3 to get the dmg back up to 1200


Then there is the other problems with bad mob resisting. 3/5 spells are either resisting fully or only hitting for <30% of max.

Mage pets (atleast) have suffered a huge decline in power due to bad aggro, mob buffing, whatever reason. Mobs I could kill in deepshade by healing pet once now require a min of 3 heals and my pets health decreases faster it seems. This is with "Greater Vocaration" btw.

Healing aggro is flawed again. Healing my pet at 50% while it is fighting a single mob transfers aggro to me now and makes it impossible for me to med in battle.

I malosini'd a clay golem at 60% and stole aggro from our warrior. I had not cast previously in that fight.

Mobs have entirely too many hp's now. Froglok casters in mielechs (sorc/nec/enc) now seem to have as many hp as regular Froglocks did prepatch. On a related note my party of 60's almost wiped on a single froglock blademaster.

Some spells are registering damage as "You punch the XXXX for XXXX DMG!"

[DoctorGonzo]

Yep, noticed the FD change as well. It seems it's 0% memory wipe, as after 4 times in a row I continued to get aggro.

Game is borked right now : (

[Chamelion]

I was part of a group that was hunting in Miel's Depth last night. The biggest thing I noticed was that aggro management was almost impossible. This was with me casting my aggro and de aggro buffs on tanks and casters. I noticed little to no change in aggro control with aid of these spells. Healers would still get aggro even when casting minor healing spells (not CH). Even with aggro buff, it would take the main tank about five seconds to get the mob off a healer or caster. This usually resulted in the caster/healer being at half life or less from hits. These were approx 55 plus mobs. While I'm not questioning the working of the spells themselves. I simply wished to point out that even with the aid of these, DPS/Taunt from the melees was not enough to keep the mob off the casters/healers.

[Mongrel]

FD is probably similar to live now, a xx% (30ish) mem wipe. Meaning you can have some bad luck and keep aggro for 10 feigns or be lucky and get a mem wipe at the first feign.

From a realistic point of view this is nonsense. Either a mob believes your feign or it doesn't (like, a bat always believes your feign, whereas a guard never does). However, from a technical pov this is great, because it makes FD less reliable (gotta add though: It's already unreliable enough with all those fails).

[Wiz]

I forgot to add the fixed FD memory into the bug list. It was needed, really. FD pulling was too easy on raid encounters and whatnot.

[gloworm]

OK, first of all like mentioned above the exp is moving WAY to slow. Even at 47 exp is moving terrible with a group of 55's hunting in their level areas. Seconadly on my mage, my mages pet was getting aggro from a mob without me casting anything, and out aggroing with a level 55 warrior and 54 monk all stomping it. And this is with /pet taunt off on. And with my druid, soloing is now completely not worth the time. Not only do mobs seem to be heavier hitting/more hit points, but 1/4 of my spells actually land on them with a charisma of 165. I was looking forward to this patch being easier on soloing class to not only promote people playing them and people utilizing quading, charming, root/rotting etc. techniques, but to give some variety to the usual (heal...nuke...heal...sit.....nuke....heal....sit) routine grouping gives us. I'm not even going to mention Mages chances right now of soloing. So summed up:

More exp, Less aggro, and reduce those sucka's hp's and chance of spells landing on them....please?

[Fjodor]

Ok, I was trying out Mieleth Depth (Seb) tonight, on killing 6 mobs (3 player group) I gain a whopping 1% exp on 60->61, when solo I gained a whooping 13% exp dept back (only did that to test).
Ï think mobs give WAY too low exp now. They resist a bit too much.
Oh a other thing, when I was running through bancak mines a mob aggroed my clr, he was WAY green and hit my clr for 150 / hit.
That is kinda hard isn't it, should a greenie hit a level 60 for 150 hits ?
Lower dmg done by mobs a bit, raise the exp, lower resist rate and finaly lower mob hp's. Not did we only get lower DPS, allso mobs have MORE hp and lower level than earlier.

[Nuralia]

The mobs you are killing are giving the same XP before. They just have a lower apparently level, but a level 50 mob would give the same XP as a level 54 mob before. Doesn't seem that way because of your perception of a nerf. :) Damn psychological effects.

Also, at the same time of these changes, we got 61-65 so people started getting normal XP instead of AA (which is considerably faster). Don't let that fool you into thinking that normal XP is slower than you think. You won't see as much gain as you did with AA.

XP debt does seem worse now.

DPS/HP of mobs may be a little off.

The balance isn't complete yet, don't think I'm trying to discount what you are saying. Just I want you to make sure you realize that there are lots of variables going into this.

[Alvaron Belasar]

Nuralia, i haven't been getting AA XP for *that* long, and this does seem to be going at Live speed. Honestly, that doesn't bother me though. I can deal with XP being slow.


The resists are what's killing me. Kathgar and i went to DN yesterday to check our soloing abilities post-nerf.

By the way, love the new port in point to West Wastes =) It takes us two tries to get down there (Actually, the second time, i used West Portal and it Translocated Izzn...)

Get to DN, med up, drop invis and start taking down one rat in DN. Ok, they summon now, can't very well solo anymore here, but... *shrugs* im sure that'll get ironed out in a few patches.

He partially resists me. Twice in a row. Now, i was still buffed from going to mielech the night before (Read Doomie's and Chamelion's post.) So i had max Charisma. No BLUE mob should be resisting me twice in a row.

The night before that, was the same thing in mielech's. I probably got 10-12 good full damage nukes in the *Entire* night. From what i'm reading... Charisma has absolutely NO effect anymore, because it sounds like Gloworm lands more full nukes than i do from his previous post.

Im not sure reducing melee dps is the way to go to support longer fights. Because Honestly, this nerf to support longer raids is affecting *everyone*, and that's kinda unfair. I still believe that if you want longer raid encounters, leave DPS the way it was and up the Max HP on High Level Raid Mobs.

What FJ said about the mob in Bancak is true... did a double take when i saw that.

And the final thing... Experience Debt. In a Pre-Nerf Raid setting (about 20+ people), i'd get my XP debt back in about 10-20 minutes. With 2 groups linked, i got 3% per kill. It took me two *hours* to recover my xp debt. that, in my eyes is absolutely ridiculous.

Aggro... um, i hate to say this, I didn't really have a problem with Aggro (At least, no more than usual :P )
. The one time i got it, i manaburned at 80% on a named.

One final thing. IS Alter Plane: Fire *REALLY* necessary? There is already a necklace that ports to this location.

[Nuralia]

One final thing. IS Alter Plane: Fire *REALLY* necessary? There is already a necklace that ports to this location.

No, it is not necessary, but it helps so guilds without ToT necklaces (which only drop off named now) can get into ToT a lot easier. It's just another way for people to get into ToT and faster.

Resists are a two edged sword, to be honest. I think NPCs need their resists lowered, but the code itself is fine. Remember, resists MEAN something now, so PCs will resist spells more often (which is GOOD! :D). Mobs have a lot of resists now, and probably could use rebalancing.
Oh, and cha makes a difference in my experience with bard Chants. It's just that mobs on average have higher resists than PCs.

[Wiz]

I'll just repeat this again.

The intention of this patch was not to slow AA experience. If it really was slowed, it will be adjusted to be at the previous rate.

Thank you.

[fadenye]

My main problem with last patch is that resist are upped greatly and high CHA aint helping much.
The good thing with patch was that the lvls of mobs got lower but still same exp. So I could theoreticly kite better mobs without summon. But that aint an option anymore since now I cant even kite the mobs(SV bats) that I did before patch(way to much resists). And btw they are not worth it anymore either, since a previous patch who changed the 50-54 mobs exp (1% AA per bat now).

[Chamelion]

while just like many of those working on the new code have said this is not final for all the changes made. I think that there has been a huge lack of attention to one thing. And as usual with all the other things going on, it has fallen to the way side.



THANK YOU for all the hard work and adding 61-65 to the game!!

[Strahd]

I will repeat Chameleon's post. Everything I was going to say regarding balance has already been said, so I'll just say thank you for all the work/testing you've been putting in.

I think the reason people have gotten so hostile is actually an off-handed compliment to you and the GM staff Wiz. People have enjoyed WR so much compared to Live that anything that makes it closer to Live is perceived as bad and a nerf. Also I think people have been in general pleased with the quick response of the staff to problems, so get frustrated when things aren't ironed out SUPER fast.

Personally I view the changes as a forced break, which you have to admit, we all need from EQ every once in a while :)

Sandral

[Dujek]

I haven't logged my ranger on since the patch, and I haven't really played in a regular group either. From the grouping I have done, however, I've mainly noticed that a difference in tactics are required, such as clerics standing for the entire fight, making a better choice of which heals they use and having the finger ready on Divine Arua just in case.

I've gotten aggro a number of times, mainly due to over-healing, casting CHeal too early, habitually sitting down, etc. And I've also let someone die a number of times because my judgement on the rate that HP drops per mob per round has been offset with the changes, but I can still function as a cleric if I pay attention and don't slip back into my old routine.

Aggro does need to be toned down, but it is possible to play efficiently if you accept the changes and play accordingly until they're fixed. Memorise root. Memorise stuns. Memorise aggro wipes... I think some of the complaints arise from people who are trying to play exactly as they played before the patch.

[umak]

Something i haven't seen mentioned here yet is that i am getting backstabbed from the front again (by mobs in bancak mines, but i suspect all rogue mobs are doing it?).

I used to notice this on some kobolds in warrens too, but it appeared to be solved a while ago. After the patch though i went to bancak and i got backstabbed from the front again.

I would also like to state that killing blues for me, at level 25 (with a cle/war combo) has become about twice as hard or even triple that to what it used to be. I often have to let my warrior almost die before i can cast a heal (have to love the low aggro of the celestial ;) ).
Where i used to be able to chain blues and have little trouble killing 2 blues every once in a while, if two blues appear now i'm lucky to survive ;(
To kill a yellow con i have to be lucky and cleric has to be full, a redcon is out of the question (as it probably should be though hehe).

for a little reference ill say something about my gear which obviously isn't all that great:
Cleric is at 145-150 wis, 600hp-ish
Warrior has 1150 hp/ 550-560 ac (full bought plate armor + some black steel)
weapons are the spiked warclub of the clan and a 10/24 with 25dd proc from sseru (forgot its name looks like a claw).

Duce/Jayna

edited spelling, damn early mornings

[Wiz]

Low levels balance and heal aggro are the two things we're looking into.

[umak]

Ok that's great to hear Wiz. Was just trying to give some extra info since i only found high-level "reports". I guess im one of the very few lowbies on the server :eek:

Duce/Jayna

[deeho81]

nah, i think it just takes most people awhile to figure out that paying attention to the boards will help you out. :)

i personally haven't logged on in about 1 1/2 weeks cuz i've got crazy stuff going on RL side (wedding) but thats about to clear up, and I'm looking forward to the changes that were made. I won't lie, I enjoyed heading into Sanctus Seru with my fellow level 40's and running back and forth, wiping out the red cons. Dinging every half hour was great...but now I see really that isn't the point. That whole thing about the journey, blah blah blah, not the destination. Yeah. Let me some it up with a little something my drill sergeant told us in basic: "If it were easy anyone could do it, and then WTF is the point?" Play on and celebrate your accomplishments, especially if they come twice as slowly.

[gloworm]

nah, i think it just takes most people awhile to figure out that paying attention to the boards will help you out.

i personally haven't logged on in about 1 1/2 weeks cuz i've got crazy stuff going on RL side (wedding) but thats about to clear up, and I'm looking forward to the changes that were made. I won't lie, I enjoyed heading into Sanctus Seru with my fellow level 40's and running back and forth, wiping out the red cons. Dinging every half hour was great...but now I see really that isn't the point. That whole thing about the journey, blah blah blah, not the destination. Yeah. Let me some it up with a little something my drill sergeant told us in basic: "If it were easy anyone could do it, and then WTF is the point?" Play on and celebrate your accomplishments, especially if they come twice as slowly.

Well deeho81, as much as I'm sure your drill sergeant was an amazing person *cough* , I'm not quite sure it pertains to everquest or even real life for that matter. People here enjoyed how it was an were looking for improvements. This is a huge task for the WR team to keep up with so they are trying to keep everyone happy. The problem with gaining exp so slow is that you have to invest so much time to do so, and a lot of people don't have or want to do that. SOE decreased greatly the amount of exp mobs give out from beta to where they are now mostly do to keep players logged and running their characters to keep those monthly subscriptions coming in. The high end game isn't about leveling anyway it's about raiding mostly, so those of use that just want to raid we want to get there at a reasonable rate.

[deeho81]

point taken. just trying to turn some frowns upside down. :sadf:

[Strahd]

What we have is a classic example of the law of unintended consequences. If your intent was to tone down player DPS so they couldn't kill uber mobs so easily/fast, you may have succeeded. But you've also managed to completely wreck the nice risk/reward balance that existed before. XP is S-L-O-W now. No it's not as bad as Live, but it's a lot worse than before. One of the reasons I liked WR was because I didn't have to grind, there was no xp treadmill. But now unless I'm in a perfectly balanced group of 58+, anything we can kill is worth crap xp.

Please change it back and figure out a better way to balance uber-mobs.

Sandral

[Wiz]

Sandral. Are you sure that you're not comparing level 61-65 EXP to old exp or something here?

Seriously. A level 51 mob gives the exact same amount of numerical experience as a level 54 mob did before the patch. A level 51 mob now has about 2000 more HP, and hits roughly as hard.

I honestly don't get some of these complaints about slow exp, because they make no sense to me.

[mwh]

Well, let me try and explain pre-patch and post-patch Mielechs Depth for xp, at least from my perspective. I always group with the same 3 people, and sometimes add 2 extras. This group consists of Khalid, Leshar(my DCed enchanter), a shaman(60), and a ranger(60).

Prepatch, we did upper Mielechs Depth mainly, also did Chef area, and Crypt sometimes. The Upper mielechs(or mielechs trash, as we liked to call it) was very nice AA xp, albeit boring. We would do Chef and Crypt mainly to "mix it up" so to speak, and try to get items, but it was considerably harder and usually required that we at least get 2 more.

PostPatch, upper Mielechs Depth is horrible xp both for AA and normal xp(my ranger friend is going 100% AA, im going 100% levels). Mind you, we had a double whammy on this, since we both had the DPS patch and the 54-51 mob xp lowering I believe. Regardless of the exact cause, Upper Mielechs is no longer worth the time of day. Its such slow xp, that its virtually pointless. Chef, which still has a mixture of normal frogloks and enchanters, is also not worth the time of day anymore, since regular mobs are just not worth it, taking longer to kill than before, and giving less xp than before. For awhile post-patch, Crypt was completely impossible, but was changed for a few days so we could do it, but then after Coltaine(who has over 2000 more hitpoints than me and probably twice my DPS and more AC, and mind you Im one of the best equipped tanks outside of GOTW) was found to be able to duo it, it was made impossible for anything but a perfectly balanced group.


Anyway, to give you an idea of the concensus opinion of post-patch xp(at least in RUIN), and that is for both AA and normal level xp, unless you are fighting in a area of all 55+ mobs, its virtually pointless right now. No one is even trying to duo that I know of, and everyone is having alot of trouble finding groups. Outside of GOTW, clerics are extremely hard to come by, and so we have to live with shamans as main healers. Yet, at the same time, the "easier" xp areas are virtually worthless. DN is completely pointless xp, Mielechs upper trash is pointless, Crypt is impossible, and Cmalath both requires a UTTER perfect group(both monk, cleric, shaman, and enchanter are required, plus 2 heavy tanks) and it has to be empty. We are left with undead frogloks and shrooms(and believe me, outside of Crypt, there are barely enough to support a full group), Ahkeva, and thats about it. Last night doing Undead froglok and shroom mobs outside of Crypt, wwe were able to get fairly good xp. Yet to give you an idea, I had at all times all day a waiting list of 3 people. Normally alot of these people would have been soloing, but soloing is pointless now, so they just got added tot he waiting list and begged for groups all day and/or logged.

A quick comment on your post. You said "A level 51 mob now has about 2000 more HP, and hits roughly as hard". Well, speaking from a paladin's perspective, who deals from 25-40 DPS parsed on a regular basis, 2000 more hitpoints is ALOT. Dps goes down + hps go up + resists go up = alot longer to kill the same mobs.

[Wiz]

Alright. In response to this, I am going to lower the disrespecensis between lower 50's and upper 50's mobs somewhat.

BUT

I do wonder what you expect? 5% AA per level 50 mob you solo? 3% per mob you kill in a group? When I tested, grouped, a low 50's mob would give between 1-3% AAexp in a full group. Is this so utterly completely worthless, or are you exhaggerating because the exp from high mobs are so much better that it's only worthless in comparision?

[mwh]

Well, its a fine line Ill admit. Im constantly logging stuff and parsing, but I dont have my xp bars set to %. Its just that when we do upper areas, it seems much slower than before. I know that isnt very definite, and its not something I can point to and say "3% is fine, 2% is worthless", but surely in comparison it doesnt seem worth it.

Anyway, thanks for looking into all this and taking our opinions into account.

[Strahd]

Sandral. Are you sure that you're not comparing level 61-65 EXP to old exp or something here?

Seriously. A level 51 mob gives the exact same amount of numerical experience as a level 54 mob did before the patch. A level 51 mob now has about 2000 more HP, and hits roughly as hard.

I honestly don't get some of these complaints about slow exp, because they make no sense to me.

The numerical xp might be exactly the same, but if it takes 2x longer to kill it, then the risk/reward has been cut in half. The combination of lowering of melee DPS (which makes aggro control harder), increased mob HP, and increased resists means experience gained over time has plummeted. Killing a level 51 mob is so much harder than killing a level 54 pre-patch that it doesn't matter if xp is numerically the same.

There also seems to be a BIG jump between mob levels 39 and 40. My 60 Beastmaster guildmate was levelling an alt and he says he can tank a L39 geonid and lose 3-5% life but a L40 geonid takes him down 50%.

If the original reason for the patch was to tone down melee DPS (something I tend to agree with considering the rog/mnk/war DPS I heard bandied about), I think the best solution would be to just change ONE thing at a time. Lower melee DPS, gradually preferably until the desired balance is reached. I don't know the mechanics behind it, but it does seem to me that high dmg/delay ratio weapons were too easy to get, causing melee DPS to be too high for those who got them. In comparison, good high level gear (non-weapons) is pretty rare if you're not able to kill dragon/NToV.

Everquest is a hugely complex system where changing one thing can have many unintended consequences. Lowering melee DPS causes aggro problems which causes mana problems which makes certain areas impossible, for example.

Lowering melee DPS, changing mob levels, increasing mob HP, increasing mob resists and allowing levels 61-65 all at the same time makes it very difficult to determine what is causing problems.

Sandral

[Yvin]

Wiz,

I agree with Strahd. The number of factors that has been altered throw the entire equation out of whack. Another problem people are having is the addition of 61-65 and how slow it is. Since their dps is lowered, since mobs are harder, since battles take longer, AND their exp bar rarely moves, it summons up all the bitterness many of us have toward live. I have no problem with slow lvl 61-65, but combined with everything else, the entire world feels harder now, more tedious, not worth the risk-vs-reward. It feels... like live. The reason we play WR is because it's NOT live. The server seems more like work than fun of late.

My observations pre- and post- patch....

I am not sure what groups were killing reds so easily. I can count the number of reds on one hand that my groups in the last 2 months have killed alone. Did a few of them need to be tweaked? Yes. Did every under 62 mob need to be buffed? No. What is the downside of a very good group tackling a red, let's say... a low 40s group winning vs. a Sanctum Brugwar (which is HARD to do, btw)... the advantage to them is a nice achievement, little more exp, not really loot advantage... but pride in a job well done. The exp is actually not that much faster because of the downtime involved with having to heal its dps. But... it was possible. It made things exciting. Where is the harm in this? If they level 10% faster than a group hunting solely low blues, so what? The only case in which hunting reds could be unbalanced is if that red has raid-level loot (in which case, the individual mob should be tweaked).

Post-patch... it's hard for me to get excited about almost wiping to blues. It's hard for me to get excited about having a healer die *every* fight on a raid. It's hard for me to get excited about Ahekva as the only place for decent exp that's worth the effort (and really only the blue men, at that!). My favorite zone was Seb but now it's a ghost town because it takes 60% of a clerics mana for *1* clay golem.

Basically, the patch made downtime a necessity, which is disappointing. It made duo'ing practically impossible for most classes. It made raids a nightmare because of the heal aggro. It gave the illusion of huge exp loss because of 61-65. It made the killing of low blues the only reasonable exp for most groups (which gets boring). It made normal exp for 40-60 much slower because of the dps nerf (despite the exp boosts). The resists are annoying. Recant magic, which on live is unresistable, got resisted many many times in Sleeper's.

My final comment: Sleeper's. I'm not going to whine about the difficulty or the splitting or the 2000 dds, cause actually, I like all that. I love the challenge of the zone. (The loot does need adjustment tho...). Sleeper's is a *perfect* example of how to make the high-end game challenging without nerfing the entire server. POA was really hard pre-patch, as well (a great zone, too, imho). A few bosses could have been tweaked a little, but for the most part, one screw-up, and the raid wipes. I like that. That is fun, challenging, but not impossible.

To me, and please clarify if I’m wrong, the dps nerf /mob buff was to address certain groups killing beyond there means (and groups can kill reds on live, btw). The only problem to this with me is if the red mob drops raid-loot. If a 40s group is rocking and dropping a few starfish or Sanctums… more power to them. It just means they will level a little quicker so that I can make them come to my raids ;) I don’t see any harm in having more lvl 60s. Leveling is not very fun. Grinding is why I got burned out on live (along with the endless key/bane camps of SoL).

60 should be quick to obtain. 61- 65 can be slow. I have no problem with that. To me, there is no downside to 60 being fast, as it was before... because more 60s, equals more raid-members. And getting a raid together is like pulling teeth these days. The exp is bad on raids. The loot is slow with the changes. And alot of stuff is unbeatable without 25+...

If you want raids to require 25+, make 1-60 as fast, if not faster, than before. If you want much of the content to be conquerable by around 18, like before, then the resist / hp /aggro /dps needs to be toned-down a bit. I'm just curious what the overall intention of all the changes is. If it was to slow down leveling, plus, making raids harder at the same time, then these desires are at cross-purposes.

Sorry for the rambling,
Yvina/Yvang

[Mongrel]

I agree 100% with yvin. Individual mobs should be tweaked, but not all reds in normal exp zones. Imagine a mediocre group seeing a deep red mob thinking "can we do it?". Then they try and after a long hard fight they down it and jump with joy.
If they level a bit faster, that's cool, since it's obviously more dangerous too.

[mwh]

Wizzy : Fairly offtopic for how this thread has been going, but XP Debt seems MUCH tougher to get rid of now. Maybe its because of the overall general slowdown in xp, but right now taking a unrezzed death hurts alot more than it used to. Dont know if this was intentional or not.

[Wiz]

Okay.

First of all, we can cut out the glorification of the past slaughter of reds. We were not talking about long, hard, fights here. I watched a group in the Deep, a group of four 46ish people (NOT twinks), slaughter high blue/white/yellow/red mobs without pausing. Red mobs provided zero more challenge than blue ones. I understand if this can be fun, but it not in the least balanced, and belongs more on a non-legit server.

I'll give that it was overdone, and a lot of that has been changed. Reds should no longer be undoable, but they SHOULD give you pause, which is intentional. The MASSIVE heal aggro is not intentional either. It's being tweaked down until it's at a good level.

The MAIN intention of the patch was to make 60+ mobs harder, AND to make levels matter more for 50+ mobs. Mob levels were tweaked down in accordance, amount required for 1 AA was tweaked down... lots of things were tweaked. Are you telling me that your entire enjoyment of the game comes from killing mobs that are another color than blue when you hit the c button?

The MAIN intention of the patch was to provide us with better tools for varying content challenge. More different layers of difficulcy. A level 51 mob should not be undoable by a group of 51's, but it shouldn't be easily soloable at 51.

The massive heal aggro, massive resists, etc, were unintentional. Resists should be somewhere at pre-patch levels for NPCs now. You will no longe r always miss with 100 skill against a level 50 mob, or against a level 35 mob at level 30.

[dimitriexzemos1]

wizzy might have a short temper, but he gets shit done <3

[Yvin]

I never hunted Deep but once, so I'm not sure about the difficulty, but in SG and DN, I had alot of trouble with reds in my 40s, especially the slimes in DN, which would generally wipe the group. Yet they were possible with a little luck.

One more point to consider: yes, melee dps was 2x what live dps was. BUT live gear, around the SoV period, was about 1.5x if not 2x better than WR gear. The Kael / TOV / POG armor all had hp/mana and many stats and effects. It's much easier to get a decent ratio weapon on WR, which is one of the factors which influence the higher dps, as well, but good hp/ac armor is scarce for many slots. Which is fine. It's arbitrary. So don't think I'm saying we need 100hp/mana 60ac for every slot, but... the better gear does factor into live leveling/exp groups. Single groups could solo in planes withouth much of a problem, if they didn't suck. All this is to simply say that a massive dps nerf without the equipment to support longer fights contributes to much more downtime/death/grind/frustration.

[Strahd]

Okay.

The MAIN intention of the patch was to make 60+ mobs harder, AND to make levels matter more for 50+ mobs. Mob levels were tweaked down in accordance, amount required for 1 AA was tweaked down... lots of things were tweaked. Are you telling me that your entire enjoyment of the game comes from killing mobs that are another color than blue when you hit the c button?

The MAIN intention of the patch was to provide us with better tools for varying content challenge. More different layers of difficulcy. A level 51 mob should not be undoable by a group of 51's, but it shouldn't be easily soloable at 51.



That all sounds like good and reasonable ideas to me. I think it sucks that you got hostility from people instead of just constructive criticism/dialogue. That's what poisoned the well in the relationship of the players and Verant IMO. It just promotes a "hunker down" mentality on both sides who see the other as their enemy. Players view the programmers with contempt and hate for "nerfing" them and programmers view the players as greedy ungrateful bastards who quickly forget all the fun they've had.

MMORPGs do funny things to people. I know back on live we had a long-time guildmate (from Quake days) cease talking to us over an argument about whether rogues were good or not! So everyone, try not to take this personally. I really think Wiz has better things to do with his time than plot nerfs and cackle gleefully when people can't kill things like they used to. Clearly he's about 10000x more responsive to his player base than Verant was (after beta).

Sandral

[maddctr]

I have noticed and commented on this happening. We are all people. Changes affect us all. It seems that both sides are forming up against the other as enemies. We should take the time to appreciate how one another affects the other. :hug: