The problem with Paladins

[Gunter Eberhardt]

Devs,

First I must congratulate you on making Everquest fun to play again. My Winter's Roar experience has been a very positive one indeed. You seem to really listen to feedback from players, so I have just a few ideas for hybrids in general, but specifically for Paladins. I will refer to Paladin's nominally, but apply my suggestions to all hybrid classes.

With that said, I feel it is important to state that when I play my Paladin I feel like a hybrid and not a Paladin. I feel like a warrior with healing spells. I understand game balancing issues, I am a product of 4 years of live. My suggestion is not to make Paladins stronger, but to make Paladins feel more like a single class than an amalgamation of 2 classes. I feel that by adding just a few simple things the Paladin (and by extension all hybrids) could become a lot more interesting class to play. I understand that balancing becomes increasingly difficult when more and more high end game content is added, but I firmly believe a little flavor is just what hybrid classes need. I will start with just one idea and see the response I get from it before I make too handsome of a list.


1. Paladin Weaponry

I believe that the Ranger class, with its bow affinity, provides a strong character backing when one plays that particular class. This same concept could be applied to a Paladin, specifically with a "Holy" (or Unholy in case of the Shadow Knight) catergory applied to specific weapons. By integrating Holy weapons into the game (I suggest putting them at high end camps requiring 50+ level groups, but not quite the raid level required by the current Paladin epic) Paladins could take on a more Dungeon & Dragonesque role in Winter's Roar. Simply opening up a 3rd Edition Dungeon Masters Guide and looking at page 188 would give you all of the materials necassary to integrate the Holy Weapon into Winter's Roar, while balancing the Paladin against the other classes. Equipping a Holy Sword in 3rd Edition makes a Paladin truly a Paldin and adds tremedous depth to the character. The dispellment of magic (as a right click effect on Holy Weapons), large plusses to saves, and "Holy" damage to evilly aligned creatures would be interesting elements to Winter's Roar, and the Paladin could become more of a pivotal part of a group. The Paladin stun line simply does not provide us with the niche required to be desirable as a player class. Also, iconically speaking, the Holy Sword has always been the heart of the Paladin class. A Paladin without a Holy Sword is like Zorro without a cape, the Lone Ranger without a mask, or Raul Duke without drugs; it just isn't right.

I believe the element of the Holy Sword in the game would make the Paladin a much niftier class to play. I know that AA points can add some of these effects to a Paladin, but these things I am suggesting are integral parts of the core class. Paladin's use Holy Weapons and Smite Evil, this is what they do. Making them earn AA points to do these things is like making Wizards get AA's to cast spells. The Paladin is a class, and though I understand on a coding level the necessity of looking at the class as simply a combination of two, in game they should feel like a real and seperate class.

I am interested in hearing what other people think about this topic. I'd like to see alot of responses, even if it is just people telling me I am an idiot.


Gunter Eberhardt the Angry Paladin :mad:

(Just grumpy in general, not upset with anything WR related!)

[DoctorGonzo]

Interesting, but there is a lack of undead mobs to kill for your holy weapon to do much to!

Also, I have read others mention how paladins have a tough time keeping aggro. This is a problem as well. Stuns don't seem to cause much HATE.

Fear doesn't work on this server, so fear resistance doesn't do much hehe. Dispel would be nice as well, but you are given a style at level 30 that procs dispel.

I would just really like to see higher level undead camps that aren't too difficult to access. I don't think it's unbalancing at all to let Paladins really lay a savage beating on undead considering they don't have very good damage output to begin with. Rangers have good damage output, shadowknights have lots of aggro type spells that make them able to tank better (and feign death which allows them to be superior pullers) but paladins don't really have anything other than heals and some tanking abilitiy. I'm not even going to mention beastlords, as they are super heroes in comparison...

I honestly think paladins are good paticularly for back up healing and group heals, but after groupping with a 47 paladin and a 47 sk and watching both try to tank, the sk wins hands down.

So what can be done to help balance them? I think increasing their abilitiy to hold aggro seems to be the most important that I've currently witnessed. I've groupped with warrior sk and paladin all around the same level, and the warrior and sk were the only ones able to hold aggro throughout the course of the majority of fights. With Paladin, shaman has to wait quite a bit before he can sit after casting slow, and monk gets aggro all the time.

[Lenlalron Flameblaster]

Wiz said he'd look at aggro.

I was getting outtaunted by a 57 warrior. And I'm the best equipped Paladin on the server.

[Payne]

I, for one, have gone through the 40s grouped with my Mage friend. I am now a 51 Paladin. During that entire time it was very difficult for me to keep aggro from his pet using taunt, bash, and having two stuns loaded. I could get the aggro from the pet eventually, but would end up losing it again. It is pretty tough to maintain aggro as a Paladin, imho.

As far as the Holy Sword is concerned, I like the idea but it almost sounds like a second epic. On live, SK's could quest for the Greenmist, a very nice 1hs that looked like a samurai sword. I'm not sure that adding another weapon would be the best solution.

I feel that more undead should be added. Paladins have weapon procs, ward spells, and critical hits against the vile bastards. That is where the Paladin can truly shine. It would really give that level 60 style Corpsebane some well deserved use as well. Eventually, it would make putting AAs into Slay Undead worthwhile.

Long story short: Add more high level undead zones.

Aratar, 51 Paladin, GotW

[Gunter Eberhardt]

I agree wholeheartly with Gonzo and Payne on the need to add more high end undead zone. That alone would help balance the Paladin presence on WR. I also feel that Instrument of Ethann should be upgraded to Live capacity as my current weapon has a nicer proc and it really isn't that great, and a Paladin should really be an undead exterminator.

Also, I may not have explained my idea about a Holy weapon quite as well as I should have. Many weapons, such as the Sword of Midnight, possess a normal damage delay ratio, augmented by additional damage, such as Cold damage in the case of the Sword of Midnight. I feel that a "Holy" and "Unholy" type of damage could be implemented in WR and really add to the Paladin and Shadow Knight classes. The inability to summon our War Horse is a big shot against the basic schema of the Paladin class, and the lack of inclusion of our iconic weapon really takes away from our class. I have a few ideas on the implementation in a coding aspect of both Holy and Unholy weapons that I could talk to the devs about.

Warriors rip everything apart wherever they go, Rangers have their fantastic bow damage and dual wield, and I played a 65 Beastlord on live so I can justifiably say that they are the Navy Seals of Everquest. Augmenting Knight damage though specialized weaponry that makes Knight classes DOMINATE in certain zones would balance the game in respect that all other melee/ hybrids dominate every other zone in respect to Knights. I wouldn't mind being the least productive melee in most zones if I knew there were certain zones I could really shine in.

And in response to the need of making an additional epic quest, it really isn't necassary. Simply adding 2 or 3 1HS/2HS weapons with the Holy/Unholy Damage and Dispel abilities to higher end content would restrict their presence enough. It is reasonable that a low 50's Paladin could attain a Holy Weapon in a well assembled full group group of similar levels. Possibly adding 1 or 2 more (nicer) on raid required mobs or mobs requiring a full group of 58+'s could also help to control there scarcity.

Gunter Eberhardt, the Angry Paladin :mad:

[DoctorGonzo]

Example I can think of is Ssraeszha Temple basement. On LIVE, it was filled with undead. A paladin in my guild would tri-client his paladin, cleric, and an enchanter. He was probably second best equipped (paladin) on server. He would DECIMATE this area through use of slay undead and instrument of nife. However, he couldn't be anywhere near as productive on non-undead.

Though one of best equipped people in general on the server, he wasn't anything overly spectacular against living mobs. However, he could annihilate undead.

I never really paid much attention to the knight classes bitching when I played on Live, but after groupping with my brother (and playing his character from time to time) I realize that they are lacking.

I used to parse raid encounters (predominately in vex thal against mobs such as the guy that drops earring of falling stars because it was just a long fight of sitting in a corner and hitting flying kick) and I would on average get DPS ratings as follows

ROGUES - 115-170
MONKS 95-145
RANGERS (with AM 3) 150 + (hard to parse archery; they parsed themselves higher)
WARRIORS 70-90
BEASTLORDS + pets - 95+ (don't remember exact numbers here)
KNIGHTS - 30-70 or so

What I did find much of the time was beastlord pets outdamaging knights. I know WR isn't LIVE, but I think comparing somethings of LIVE are helpful in helping balance some issues on WR. As you can see, knights CLEARLY had the lowest DPS of other classes, which is fine. However, it seems on WR they are just weak warriors with fairly weak spells.

Hopefully the knight community can come together and find an acceptable solution to some of these issues.

This is just my opinion, take it however you want.

[NumberBlue]

I totally agree with everything here. When I play, I really don't feel like I'm any one class, unless I'm roleplaying. I'm either a crappy healer, or a crappy tank. There was a time when roleplaying with Erignamatic was the only thing that kept me playing, becuase the events he ran would always require me to BE a Knight, so I felt like wasn't a crappy healer or tank, I felt like a Paladin.

A while ago, I commented(bitched) a lot on a Paladin's effectiveness in groups. I always felt like I was falling short on my duties, unable to hold aggro mostly, and when there was no healer, that would actually be my job, with a lot of downtime in between fights.

Nowadays, post 55, our Stuns aren't too helpful, a Paladin would NEVER be a main healer, if a healer at all, and you don't even consider a Paladin for his ability to hold aggro or DPS.

LoH is really the only thing I'm proud of, and that's a once an hour thing. Nothing to define a class by.

-I'd LOVE a Smite Evil spell/style/ability. Mostly ability. Something I could use from level 9 and improve on every two or so spell levels, that could be used every 3 or 5 minutes. If you're going into ANY zone with evil, it should be that you need to definetly consider taking a Paladin along for his ability to hold aggro and do some damage on evil creatures.

-Holy weapons would be awesome. Holy weapons that a level 50 with a group of friends could get would be even better. Weapons don't define the class completely, but these things would sure as hell put some nice icing on the cake.

-Some mid to high level undead zones would be amazing. Nothing could compare, actually. Places that you would DEFINITELY want a Paladin to go along with you.

I'd like to suggest giving Paladins some more group beneficial spells.
For example, a warcry that acted like a group Yaulp, but perhaps these would be too much like Bard songs.

Edit: Stuns and Blinds are getting aggro improvements, nice news. But those aren't really class defining, and many classes get those spells. I'm really happy about this, though.

I was thinking of how our styles are mostly useless. Most Paladin's use only Aggressive and Defensive, since it's far more effective.

Level 20: Sorcerous: Decreases chance of being interrupted. Decreases melee avoidance. - When are we ever standing back and casting long enough for this to be useful?
Level 30: Negating: Imbues paladin with a dispel proc. - Useful, but it's a proc and far too unpredictable. When you need a dispell, you need it NOW.
Level 45: Willstrong: Grants paladin immunity to mind-affecting spells. (Fear, Mesmerize) - Nice, but don't we get an AA ability for this?
Level 55: Empathic: Decrease damage dealt, make the damage lost each hit a heal distributed among the group members equal to the decreased amount of damage. Will not heal the paladin any. - Last time I tried this, it didn't work. Would be REALLY nice if it helped aggro, too.
Level 60: Special Style: Corpsebane: Triple damage output against undead. - Rangers get a style exactly like this, except it works on EVERYTHING! This would be awesome if it worked against all evil creatures, and gave us a proc. A small haste would make it worth using much more often, and an "against evil only" aggro increase would make it prefect.

So, as you can see. All of our feats aside from the ones that EVERY OTHER class gets, are pretty useless to us. I can't really complain though, since I'd rather have these then nothing.

[Gunter Eberhardt]

Good point on Rangers getting the 3x damage on everything. Good deconstruction on wimpy Pally disciplines too. I am thinking nice Holy Weapons with 1 second right click Dispel Magic would make a Paladin supremely useful as a dispeller in high level groups and a Smite Evil as a bad guy leveler!




Gunter Eberhardt, the Angry Paladin :mad:

[Payne]

At level 30 we get a Negating style that proc's dispel. I don't see why we would need an item with right clicky dispel. Just change your style.

As far as the Holy weapon is concerned, I think a weapon with an Undead Bane Damage bonus on it instead of just adding Holy damage would be best. But then make this item Paladin-only so we don't have a bunch of "wannabe-Pallys" running around :D

We also have some AA (name escapes me atm) that turns out Lay Hands into a stamina heal and disease/poison/etc cure. I don't think any Paladin would invest in this AA reasonably; to me it's just not worth the AA pts to get what it offers. Could this AA be changed to either a double Lay Hands (heals target AND Paladin), group Lay Hands (heals entire group), Lay Hands Rejuv (heals target and restores a percentage of mana), or Lay Hands Affinity (decrease re-use time) ?

Just throwing out some ideas; keep the ball rolling!

[Darwin]

Wiz said he'd look at aggro.

And I'm the best equipped Paladin on the server.

I say psh. :P

[Gunter Eberhardt]

LOL. That made me spit milk through my nose Darwin.



Gunter Eberhardt, the Angry Paladin :mad:

[Taledarien]

At level 30 we get a Negating style that proc's dispel. I don't see why we would need an item with right clicky dispel. Just change your style.

The style is very inneffective. There's absolutely no reason to use this style, and the reasons are as follows..

-It's a proc, which means it's way too unpredictable. When you need a dispel, you need it NOW!
-We already get dispelling spells. How is this style useful to any class who can already cast dispelling spells that will work when you want them to?
-Risks loosing aggro. If I'm tanking, and I need to turn off Aggressive, then I'm going to be loosing aggro right away. That's like trading something that works everytime, for something that may or may not work.

By far, the most useless style for Paladins. You'll probably use it once just becuase you can, and then never give a thought to using it ever again.

[Wiz]

At level 30 we get a Negating style that proc's dispel. I don't see why we would need an item with right clicky dispel. Just change your style.

As far as the Holy weapon is concerned, I think a weapon with an Undead Bane Damage bonus on it instead of just adding Holy damage would be best. But then make this item Paladin-only so we don't have a bunch of "wannabe-Pallys" running around :D

We also have some AA (name escapes me atm) that turns out Lay Hands into a stamina heal and disease/poison/etc cure. I don't think any Paladin would invest in this AA reasonably; to me it's just not worth the AA pts to get what it offers. Could this AA be changed to either a double Lay Hands (heals target AND Paladin), group Lay Hands (heals entire group), Lay Hands Rejuv (heals target and restores a percentage of mana), or Lay Hands Affinity (decrease re-use time) ?

Just throwing out some ideas; keep the ball rolling!

Did you miss the fact that Advanced Empathy also turns it into a complete heal?

[Payne]

Yes, yes I did. :o

[Nuralia]

The style is very inneffective. There's absolutely no reason to use this style, and the reasons are as follows..

-It's a proc, which means it's way too unpredictable. When you need a dispel, you need it NOW!
-We already get dispelling spells. How is this style useful to any class who can already cast dispelling spells that will work when you want them to?
-Risks loosing aggro. If I'm tanking, and I need to turn off Aggressive, then I'm going to be loosing aggro right away. That's like trading something that works everytime, for something that may or may not work.

By far, the most useless style for Paladins. You'll probably use it once just becuase you can, and then never give a thought to using it ever again.

I believe Wiz knows styles are not being used because most of them, well, suck. In fact, I KNOW Wiz knows that, because he said he was going to redo ALL styles eventually. He's just been swamped with things to do.

So hurray! Paladins are going to be getting new styles! :)

[DoctorGonzo]

If DPS is going to be significantly lowered (to be more in line with live), and mobs hp's are going to be increased, then can instrument of enthann be more in line with how it is on live?

I'm not exactly sure what the damage on it caps at here, but it seemed to be +1 damage per level and capped at around 90 damage at level 60.

This is compared to the 243 or so damage it does on live.

If 90 damage is what it does here and DPS is lowered here and mobs hp are raised, I think it would only make sense to raise the damage on this to 120-150 or so to be more in line with changes.

Plain and simple, if damage is set to be more in line with how it is on live, leaving it capping at 90 seems to be too low if mobs are getting a raise in hp.

Just a thought.

[Nuralia]

This thread is almost defunct, because stuns/flash of light are good aggro spells now, Instrument of Enthann is being changed, and styles are going to be reworked soon. :D

[Liam]

This thread is almost defunct, because stuns/flash of light are good aggro spells now, Instrument of Enthann is being changed, and styles are going to be reworked soon. :D

I think it's worth mentioning that I outtanked Lenlalron as a level 60 monk.

:o

[Dujek]

I think it's worth mentioning that I outtanked Lenlalron as a level 60 monk.

We need to start a new thread entitled, "Why monks should be nerfed."

[mwh]

Now that stuns and blind are aggro, Im having a MUCH better time in groups holding aggro. My DPS is still extremely low though, with almost all pets outdamaging me on a regular basis.

Khalid 62 Crusader

[Lenlalron Flameblaster]

Satrak did outtank me. Satrak just did too much damage, to where my stuns couldn't hold aggro.

I guess I should get flash of light. :(

Oh, I think corpsebane should, you know, give you +hit to undead to. I actually USED it in akheva, and I missed 75% of my strikes on my target (a blue undead dude, Vi'anslith, I'd guess 58ish), making it a waste.

:(